Masks: Damaging the Youth of Taiwan

[jdsmith]

@MeisterFeister

I like you. We get to have a chat, that’s cool in my books. I’m grateful you shared on this post.

Careful.

[MeisterFeister]

@jdsmith

They should be more strictly parented?

I don’t think strict is the correct word. To clarify, I think the parents and teachers in these kids lives should:

1. Lead by example and stop hiding behind their mask. If you’re sick, sure, wear it if you want. If not, take it off.

2. I think they should tell the kids the same thing: “Are you sick? No? Then take it off.”

If humans had evolved to cover their faces all the time, we’d all have some hanging skin flap to do so with. We don’t. Our faces are meant to be exposed for many reasons, including the fact that a tremendous amount of information and experience is communicated through them. Kids need to have access to this to have healthy social-emotional development and healthy self-esteem amongst other things.

[Whatevah]

@MeisterFeister

and are being robbed of opportunities to build confidence and healthy self esteem with especially with regards to their own bodies and looks.

Or masking might be a great solution? Maybe it will give them the perfect solution so they can be comfortable and feel safe instead of constant horror and self consciousness. Meanwhile they process their thoughts and emotions and will take it off when they feel like it?

If you think about it you have neither any study nor even a strong argument to the contrary. Atm it’s all just guesswork either way. In these situation I would rather not be an evil dictator demanding people to behave how I want them to. Let people make their own choices.

[jdsmith]

@MeisterFeister

Kids need to have access to this to have healthy social-emotional development and healthy self-esteem amongst other things.

More than a few of my students wore the masks last year, after the mandate was cancelled. They’re fine. Great kids, had their reasons. In my high school the wrong facial expression at the wrong time could earn you a punch in the head.

You do you is always a good philosophy for parenting.

[Whatevah]

@MeisterFeister

I teach a wide cross-section of people from 5 to adults and have been hearing this answer since November when we were allowed to take off our masks and almost nobody did.

Huh? Are you sure you’re in Taiwan? Masks are at maybe 10-20 percent right now. Maybe slightly more for kids but it’s not “almost nobody did”.

[MeisterFeister]

@Whatevah

Huh? Are you sure you’re in Taiwan? Masks are at maybe 10-20 percent right now.

Hahaha, yeah man, I’m sure. Not even close. Are you in public schools? Do you have kids in public schools?

At most, 20% DON’T wear masks. They’re all still hiding. Local teachers too.

[Whatevah]

I don’t teach, so no idea about classrooms. I was giving percentages for my observations out there in the wild.

[user86]

@MeisterFeister

When asking my students “Why are you still wearing a mask?” I consistently get the same answer:

“I’m ugly.”

I know how they feel.

When I first moved to Taiwan during Covid every single woman that I passed in the streets checked me out. I thought “wow I must be a 10 here. Should have moved here earlier!” Then when mask restrictions were lifted a few months ago, I stopped wearing masks and girls stopped checking me out.

In all seriousness, they probably give you that answer to be funny. They just don’t want to get into another conversation about masking. They’ve already heard it all from both sides, and everyone is tired of hearing it.

[QuaSaShao]

It’s bad enough that people are hiding their faces in shame. If we could get them to stop hiding their bodies in shame then we’d really start to get somewhere.

[BigDave]

@Whatevah

Maybe slightly more

It is still well above 20 percent for adults and its above 90 for kids.

Don’t downplay it.

@Whatevah

I don’t teach, so no idea about classrooms. I was giving percentages for my observations out there in the wild.

No idea about classrooms? Why guess?

[BigDave]

I think all the healthy kids should wear masks at school so old guys can carry on with their life and go outside whether they have covid or not.

[afterspivak]

@QuaSaShao

If we could get them to stop hiding their bodies in shame then we’d really start to get somewhere.

Good point. I have noticed that students wear clothing. And I have noticed some depression too. Therefore . . .

Guy

[Poundsand]

@MeisterFeister

Because over the past 25 years, I’ve never seen the majority of young people I’m around proclaim to publicly hide their face because “I’m ugly”.

1 - the majority of young kids you teach are proclaiming they’re ugly?
2 - that kids didn’t proclaim it doesn’t mean they didn’t have self esteem issue. in your telling, they’re now saying it because you’re asking them why they’re not.masking, so you’re now proactively asking something directly related, whereas before, you were asking what, that might have elicited a similar response?

@MeisterFeister

have been hearing this answer since November

When you presumably started asking. You weren’t hearing it before, masked or unmasked, because you weren’t asking. So the conclusion you draw is “masks!”?

@MeisterFeister

I’d say get away from your old man

I think his dad is halfway around.the world from him. From what @Taiwan_Luthiers has posted, they have a weird dynamic (to say the least), with problems stemming from both of them. TL is, unfortunately, unwilling to see his own part in his issues. I’m still rooting for him though! Whatever he’s doing with his mafia tied uncle, I hope he doesn’t make his situation worse (already has had legal issues in (at least) 2 countries), and he finds himself a niche.

@MeisterFeister

f humans had evolved to cover their faces all the time, we’d all have some hanging skin flap to do so with. We don’t. Our faces are meant to be exposed for many reasons…

Pretty sure that by that logic we should all run around naked.

@jdsmith

More than a few of my students wore the masks last year, after the mandate was cancelled. They’re fine. Great kids, had their reasons. In my high school the wrong facial expression at the wrong time could earn you a punch in the head.

I miss masks. Easier to cuss people out under my breath, and I don’t smell other people’s stink as much.

[Shaun008]

@Poundsand

I miss masks. Easier to cuss people.out u der my breath, and I don’t smell other people’s stink as much.

I still wear mine occasionally.

Mask on, hud up, make a withdrawal from the bank, life is good

[finley]

@afterspivak

Look many of us are in the teaching profession here in Taiwan.

This could well explain why you take umbrage.

I happened to come across a page on Quora the other day where somebody was directing a question (‘how did the pandemic impact you?’ or something like that) at kids and teenagers. Many of the answers were absolutely heartbreaking. The themes were (a) confusion and (b) sadness. They had a profound sense of loss - at being disconnected from their friends, sitting at home spinning their wheels, neglecting their education, and so on. Many of them seemed far more despondent than you would expect from the average teenager. It’s hardly a scientific survey, but these outcomes were entirely predictable for anyone who has ever actually met a human child.

Although most of the respondents must have been in their teens (I don’t think Quora is used by six-year-olds) their level of understanding was childlike: they mostly took the view that their elders must have done this to them for a reason, but they were fishing around in their box of possible reasons and were coming up empty-handed.

Masks were not specifically mentioned as the primary cause of all this. But masks were part of it, and there were plenty of teachers - the sort who really shouldn’t be teachers - who took mask mandates as an opportunity to bully and scream at their charges.

Teachers have not distinguished themselves during 2020-2023. It now seems to be common knowledge that school shutdowns in the US, and possibly in the UK, were driven almost entirely by teachers union pressure.

@afterspivak

think about how correlation and causality are not the same.

Neither are they necessarily unconnected. “Correlation is not causation” does not mean “correlation is never causation”, and its incredibly irritating to see that phrase used to swat away something for which there is strong evidence of causation.

@MeisterFeister

Because over the past 25 years, I’ve never seen the majority of young people I’m around proclaim to publicly hide their face because “I’m ugly”.

This effect was discussed a few months back. Several teachers had noticed it.

Kids have of course always been a bit shy compared to adults. Teenagers have always been unconfident about their looks. They have not always worn masks. I think what has happened is that they do not know why they are wearing masks, but conditioning has caused them to continue wearing them. In this sort of circumstance your brain always invents a reason for behaviour that it cannot otherwise justify; in this case it’s reaching for something that’s at the top of a teenage kid’s consciousness and finding that it fits the bill.

For anyone who is interested in this sort of thing, I recommend reading up on ‘split brain’ studies.

[FairComment]

Equating using masks whilst performing surgery, to masking kids in classrooms, is quite ridiculous.

[TT]

@finley

their level of understanding was childlike: they mostly took the view that their elders must have done this to them for a reason

Funny, I for one wouldn’t go so far as to say the idea that covid 19 measures were deliberate and unnecessary is childish

@finley

Teachers have not distinguished themselves during 2020-2023. It now seems to be common knowledge that school shutdowns in the US, and possibly in the UK, were driven almost entirely by teachers union pressure.

I think in the early days everypne was scared. Online learning was a nightmare for teachers, in some cases because of the format and in other cases because they weren’t used to having parents basically sitting in on every class. At least poor or mediocre teachers pushing garbage previously were able to hide it. Not much of a surprise that the US and the UK are also both experiencing teacher shortages.

@finley

Kids have of course always been a bit shy compared to adults. Teenagers have always been unconfident about their looks

Yeah. I think you and I agree that the masks don’t help but yeah.

@FairComment

Equating using masks whilst performing surgery, to masking kids in classrooms, is quite ridiculous.

Properly used, masks reduce the spread of disease causing germs, that’s why surgeons use them. Not so ridiculous.

[foc]

As it happens, there was a report in the United Daily News about this issue today.

1. There is a Korean drama about this called [Mask Girl] (Mask Girl - Wikipedia).

2. Psychiatrists, counselors, and mental health NGOs in Taiwan are well aware of the issue.

3. A serious case of a junior high school student is discussed. She obessively wears a mask to conceal her appearance. She has been diagnosed with a form of body dysmorphic disorder, which is a DSM-5-recognized mental health condition.

4. The pyschiatrist interviewed for the article says that this disorder is has complex causes that include biological, psychological, cultural, and family factors.

5. In response to the anxiety and depressive feeling that arise from this condition, some people create a new self/image online using photoediting and skin beautifying software. This often leads to social media disorders related to obssesively check whether a posted image of oneself has been liked and the number of impressions. If these numbers do not meet expectations, more anxiety and insecurity results.

6. US studies linking use of Instagram with suicide by young girls cited.

Real-life human contact and interactions can be encouraged to stabilize emotions.

I suspect that Taiwanese teachers and other professionals are better positions even the most experienced foreign teachers to recognize and deal with these issues (if they exist) appropriately.

There are also probably appropriate channels. If a foreign teacher felt there was a real issue, she could mention it to the school nurse required by law. Or perhaps ask the class’s teacher to do so.

[zaowangyeh]

@MeisterFeister

When asking my students “Why are you still wearing a mask?” I consistently get the same answer:

“I’m ugly.”

Similar reasons were given when asked my child’s classmates. They have sobered up since these discussions took place, of course with the consent of their parents.

[finley]

@TT

Funny, I for one wouldn’t go so far as to say the idea that covid 19 measures were deliberate and unnecessary is childish

I said the kids [teenagers] didn’t have the intellectual sophistication to come to the correct conclusion, viz., their elders were horrible people projecting their fears onto the children they were supposed to protect. They were trying to fit “why would they do this to us?” into a framework of “teachers ultimately have our best interests at heart”. Kids always believe adults are doing their best for them. That’s what I meant by “childlike”.

That’s what makes child abuse such a horrific crime. It’s a profound betrayal of trust.

I think in the early days everypne was scared.

Teachers and academics, as society’s intellectual vanguard, should have been among the first to sound the alarm bells about the nature of what was going on. They should have been standing shoulder-to-shoulder with all the doctors and scientists being ejected from Twitter and YouTube for calling out the BS, or calling for calm, or for flagging up propaganda. They didn’t. In large part, teachers propagated and amplified the fear messaging and false claims, and they carried on doing it long after the general population had figured out it was all a massive scam. A large segment of the medical community, likewise.

At least poor or mediocre teachers pushing garbage previously were able to hide it. Not much of a surprise that the US and the UK are also both experiencing teacher shortages.

I don’t doubt it. So why were teachers unions allowed to get away with subverting in-person schooling for months on end? Why, when classes returned, didn’t they tell students to take their masks off?

Properly used, masks reduce the spread of disease causing germs, that’s why surgeons use them. Not so ridiculous.

That isn’t the reason surgeons use them - it’s been discussed at length. The traditional surgeon mask is a simple cloth mask; it’s made of the same material as the gown, and is worn for the same basic reason. The disposables with a more sophisticated filter stack only became popular in the 80s. You can look this up if you don’t believe me. And in any case children are always spreading germs, it’s kinda what they do. The issue here is whether the harm caused to children from wearing masks is worth it.