Mass Murder by America in the Philippines

[Cold_Front]

@Soddom

Anyone searching for information on the American-Philippine war will be struck by how little information can be found. This war is usually subsumed in a discussion about the wider American-Spanish war. I have searched a number of US historical sources for information and they yielded little, if anything about this genocide. No doubt this is why some of the more provocative historians have tackled the subject.

Nonsense. There are numerous books that deal with the subject matter. Even at the time of the incident, there were Senate hearings on the cruel nature of the war, and even Howard Taft, the first civilian governor of the Philippines, admitted in the hearings that some natives were tortured.

Last night, I reread some parts of Stanley Karnow’s In Our Image: America’s Empire in the Philippines. He has an entire chapter dedicated to the rough tactics used by American troops. He even calls the chapter “Civilizing with a Krag” (the Krag-Jorgensen was the standard rifle used by U.S. troops at the time).

What happened in the Philippines was no secret. If you are having trouble finding material on this subject, it’s because you don’t know how to look for it. Of course, if you are looking for the actual words “genocide” and “The Philippines” together, then you’ll probably have to rely on various Leftist internet sites that won’t hold much water with others.

@Soddom

It’s genocide because it was a genocide. When the US government officially acknowledges how many Filipinos it tortured and murdered, we will have an official figure. Until then, we must rely on the accounts of those who were there and historians.

The U.S. government acknowledges it killed twenty thousand Filipino soldiers – a number almost certainly exaggerated for the same reason body counts in Vietnam were later exaggerated. The two hundred thousand figure is guessed at by others and it includes civilians who died of famine as well as those killed by both sides of the conflict.

@Soddom

For an author to be able to write a whole book on the Philippines, I suspect he may know “more than shit”.

Who has written an entire book on the Philippines? Not Gore Vidal. Not Howard Zinn. Who are you talking about?

@Soddom

At the very least, he could say “shit” eloquently. Zinn is a respected academic, while The New York Times Book Review (no friend to Vidal in his younger days) said of him "Gore Vidal is the master essayist of our age. Thus the credentials of these two authors are sound. We can only assume why you have not attacked the other sources.

Howard Zinn is respected among Leftists for his unswerving dedication to the cause. Vidal is rightly considered a master essayist for his prose style and wit, but not for any solid content. Neither of them knows much about Asia.

@Soddom

Still, if you find these authors acceptable, I invite you to contribute the research of others on this matter. Then instead of mud slinging, you could debate the issue. Or could you?

I most certainly can and I’ve been doing so ever since you started with this thread. I’ve corrected your most egregious errors and I’m continuing to try and correct them as you make them.

[Cold_Front]

[quote]As early as May 1901, U.S. General Bell estimated that there were already 600,000 Filipino casualties in Luzon alone of which perhaps only between 15,000-20,000 were soldiers. This was only after two years of fighting and before the systematic “pacification campaigns” in Luzon and the Visayas. Entire populations were herded into so-called “zones of protection” and so many tens of thousands died from hunger, exposure and disease. Perhaps 100,000 Muslims were also killed in their resistance from 1903 to 1913 in Mindanao. It is certain that U.S. imperialism killed between 10-15% of our population then of some 8 million, or from 800,000 to over a million deaths. By any account that is a staggering amount.

www.apk2000.dk/netavisen/artikler/verde … ention.htm[/quote]

Relying on the blown-up patriotic effusions of some uneducated nativist Filipino politician for your historical proof? Soddom, you are truly a sad case. Quit casting your google line out into the internet sea hoping to catch something to support you.

The entire piece is riddled with errors. I especially loved this part:

The U.S. had unleashed its vast war machine. Some 60% of the U.S.’ 216,029 Army regulars and volunteers in 1898 were deployed in 639 outposts across the archipelago. Indeed, the 50,000 Army regulars of 1898 were doubled - some estimates say even quadrupled - because of the Filipino-American War. Prosecuting the war cost the U.S. anywhere from U.S.$400 million to over U.S.$600 million, staggering amounts for the time.

Vast war machine? In the late nineteenth century, the U.S. barely registered as a major power. At the time, the U.S. spent something like only one percent of its GDP on its military. The Filipino rebels outnumbered the U.S. by at least two to one, and soldiers on both sides used essentially the same type of equipment to kill: a rifle. It’s not like the U.S. had smart bombs and helicopters in those days, and even artillery – which it did have – was not used because it was a guerrilla war and the terrain wouldn’t allow for it.

[Tigerman]

@Cold Front

The U.S. government acknowledges it killed twenty thousand Filipino soldiers – a number almost certainly exaggerated for the same reason body counts in Vietnam were later exaggerated. The two hundred thousand figure is guessed at by others and it includes civilians who died of famine as well as those killed by both sides of the conflict.

And this site: msc.edu.ph/centennial/philam.html, which, if I am not mistaken is a Philippine site, supports your above statement:

[quote]The United States, by title of purchase in the 1898 Treaty of Paris, bought the Philippines from Spain, for US$20,000,000.

It also bought itself a war, in the name of Benevolent Assimilation.

Some 16,000 soldiers were killed in battle. About 200,000 civilians succumbed to pestilence, disease, and crossfire during the war. [/quote]

[fred_smith]

Coldfront:

Thanks for the information on the Filipino insurrection. I would be curious for the Filipino, Korean and Vietnamese conflicts to have an exact breakdown of deaths.

How many were soldiers? How many were civilians? Who was killed by whom. I do not want a total and then this is naturally attributed to the US forces alone?

Out of the accepted 200,000 deaths in the Philippines (do you accept this?) how many were killed by the other side. I would count the famine deaths if they were related directly to efforts by the States to move populations without adequately feeding them. What is the final estimated death count for Vietnam by the way? 57,000 US soldiers but then civilians (caused by Viet Cong and US forces up to the departure of US forces in 1973?)

As to the rest of the debate, I will humbly bow out, but with just one comment regarding the Filipino insurrection not being taught. I received a copy of American history encyclopedia back for the 200th anniversary of the US Fourth of July from a friend of my parents. I do recall a page (it was a very simple set) discussing the action in the Philippines, the number of deaths and the reasons for the conflict. It quite clearly indicated that the Filipinos did not “welcome” the US forces and acknowledged strong support among certain parties for US imperialism as well as the White Man’s Burden and an extension of Manifest Destiny to the Philippines. Now this was in a set of encyclopedias that were very common at the time and were written for 5th to 6th graders (10 to 11 year olds).

I do appreciate your concern about these types of debates however. I believe that it is quite desperate to have to trace back history to this period to be able to find examples of American atrocity. I suspect Soddom that your intention is not to “discuss” and “learn from” the issue but merely use it as an opportunity to beat up on American foreign policy.

My understanding is that “genocide” is now grossly misused. I think that only two examples really come to mind: Germany’s treatment of the Jews and the Turkish efforts to kill off the Armenian population during WWI. (1915-1917) Perhaps, Stalin’s efforts to root out the kulaks in the Ukraine might qualify but it seems less racially and more class based?

Anyway, I would be very curious to know more about the civilian casualties in these conflicts or on the other hand, what makes them so topical to the present day.

[Closet_Queen]

@Cold Front

Who has written an entire book on the Philippines? Not Gore Vidal. Not Howard Zinn. Who are you talking about?

This was one of the sources I supplied earlier. “The Philippines, Land of Broken Promises”, historian James B. Goodno.

@Cold Front

Relying on the blown-up patriotic effusions of some uneducated nativist Filipino politician for your historical proof? Soddom, you are truly a sad case. Quit casting your google line out into the internet sea hoping to catch something to support you.

Your posts show that you are very fond of accusing those you disagree with of being “leftists” and “uneducated”. To date, you have done nothing but attack both the character and research of all the sources I have quoted. This does not constitute an argument, and you have still failed to post something that can authoritatively dispute their points. Clearly, you are incapable of this, and so I leave it to someone else to bear your childish insults and slander.

[fred_smith]

Sorry Soddom:

I agree that ad hominem attacks are not acceptable (unless the person is really dumb and then most times they do not know they are being insulted) but to criticize the sources provided is fair game in my book, especially since there are so many sites out there where nothing but crackpots spew facts and figures that have no correlation to reality (please refer to Rascal’s posts!) said Freddy in one example of the poor taste exhibited in borderline ad hominem attacks.

While I personally know little about the Filipino insurrection, I do not think that Soddom has made his case and is angry because he has failed. The more acceptable method would be to prove that Coldfront’s view is in some way inaccurate or as politically biased as Soddom’s sources. That has not been done so …

[Comrade_Stalin]

One thing I find curious about Soddom’s attack is his complete disregard of contemporary events. He seems to think America’s liberation and subsequent occupation of the Philippines occurred in a complete vacuum.

In the late 19th century early 20th century, Japan was a growing, expanding imperialist power in Asia. There was a very real fear (justfied by subsequent evets) of Japanese militarism. The Philippines were a target of the Japanese because the Spanish were White Europeans and considered to be “soft”. US occupation gave the Filipino people time to establish those societal mechanisms (forbidden them under the Spanish) necessary to a modern state.

Has Soddom forgotten about the Sino-Japanese War (1894-95), Japan’s invasion and colonization of Taiwan (1895) or the Russo-Japanese War (1904-05)? How about Japan’s atrocities committed against the Chinese during the Boxer Rebellion?

I suggest Soddom read “The Valor of Ignorance” by Homer Lea. He was a true military genius and served as Sun Yat-sen’s military advisor. He also raised and trained an army made up of Overseas Chinese in America to fight against the Ch’ing Dynasty. In his book, Lea predicted and described a Japanese attack on the Philippines and invasion of the US. Incidentally, when the Japanese attacked the Philippines on Dec 8, 1941, the planes flew out of based located in and around Kaohsiung.

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[Cold_Front]

Tigerman –

Thanks for the internet support.

Fred –

I’m not up, right now, to searching for the exact casualty figures on the Korean and Vietnamese Wars, but I can tell you with certainty, just off the top of my head, that they were both far more deadly wars than the Philippine Insurrection – for both the U.S. troops who participated in them and the respective native populations. There’s really no comparison.

I accept the 200,000 figure simply because it’s the most common figure I see. But I’m a little suspicious about how they arrive at it, especially since most sources usually also state that no one will ever know what the exact figure is. I know there are demographers that study population figures from before and after an event, assume likely birth rates, and then deduce the likely cost in human lives that the event caused, but I don’t know much in detail about the reliability of their methods.

[Closet_Queen]

To Fred:

I have purposely tried to avoid quoting from, as you say,

[fred_smith]

Soddom:

I will accept the 200,000 figure based on what I have seen so far. Not all of these deaths would be directly attributable to the Americans though. This would be a total figure. Let’s assume 1/2 to 2/3rds are US caused or indirectly caused (disease, famine) so 100,000 to say 140,000. This is still quite a lot and this is something that obviously does not stand to the US credit.

Vidal as far as I know is quite left wing. It is like quoting Rush Limbaugh to lefties and expecting them to accept his views and rhetoric. Unfortunately, I have read Vidal’s books as well and am not quite sure how “historically factual” they are. I guess they are more meant to give a “flavor” of the period so I would question their use as historical basis in fact.

I guess I am curious as to why this particular discussion surfaced. What is the reason why a conflict that happened more than 100 years ago is of such relevance today? Though I certainly think that it is something worth learning more about.

The second thing I would like to point out is that during American history classes, we used U.S. -issued texts and while the Filipino insurrection was not covered in any where near the detail the Civil War was, it was mentioned prominently as was the whole sensationalism behind the Spanish American war. A boxed text also discussed the war specifically from a point of view of the American obsession with Manifest Destiny as well as the prevailing themes of White Man’s Burden and Imperialism. So these were clearly pointing out the negatives behind the US actions. Given the trends at the time though I have to wonder what would have happened to the Spanish colonies in a few years (whether they would have been absorbed by the Japanese for example).

Anyway, I would be very curious if anyone has information on a more recent war, the Vietnam War. I would like to know how many civilians died and how many deaths were directly and indirectly attributable to American actions.

That said, I still think that genocide is an entirely inappropriate word here. It means intentional eradication of an entire ethnic group. If you were to say the Americans went in to shoot everyone and colonize it with White immigration that would be the case, but given the actual circumstances, this seems to be a gross exaggeration.

[Cold_Front]

@Soddom

[quote=“Cold Front”]Who has written an entire book on the Philippines? Not Gore Vidal. Not Howard Zinn. Who are you talking about?

This was one of the sources I supplied earlier. “The Philippines, Land of Broken Promises”, historian James B. Goodno.[/quote]

Okay, but try to pay attention. Here is what I originally wrote and what you responded to:

@Soddom

[quote=“Cold Front”]Predictably, Soddom’s sources include Gore Vidal and Howard Zinn. (He only needs to include Noam Chomsky to make the anti-U.S. triumvirate complete.) Neither of these men [Vidal and Zinn] know shit about the Philippines and are not well-versed enough on the country and the war to know which sources on the topic are well-regarded and which are not to be trusted.

For an author to be able to write a whole book on the Philippines, I suspect he may know “more than shit”. At the very least, he could say “shit” eloquently. Zinn is a respected academic, while The New York Times Book Review (no friend to Vidal in his younger days) said of him "Gore Vidal is the master essayist of our age. Thus the credentials of these two authors are sound. We can only assume why you have not attacked the other sources.[/quote]

Notice how Goodno is not mentioned in my post or your response.

Frankly, I don’t know much about Goodno. I do know that his book at the Amazon site didn’t merit a single review and that it appears he has written no other books.

In other words he doesn’t appear to be a serious scholar. Do you really have his book or did you find some internet site that referred to his work? If you have his book, tell us about his credentials. If you found his quote at an internet site, then link to it.

@Soddom

Your posts show that you are very fond of accusing those you disagree with of being “leftists” and “uneducated”.

I call people what they are. Nothing more; nothing less. I actually tried to find something nice to say about you afer you changed the thread title. While I didn’t much like the new title any better than I did the old one, I thought your willingness to make the change spoke well both of your ability to learn and your capacity for admitting mistakes. I now think I overestimated you.

To date, you have done nothing but attack both the character and research of all the sources I have quoted.

Look, here’s the simple truth. You have quoted and sometimes misquoted commentators who habitually exaggerate the so-called crimes of the U.S., and who – with the possible exception of Goodno – have no special scholarly knowledge of the Philippines.

This does not constitute an argument, and you have still failed to post something that can authoritatively dispute their points. Clearly, you are incapable of this, and so I leave it to someone else to bear your childish insults and slander.

I have provided more accurate information on this than anyone. I have:

1. Corrected your misconception that Theodore Roosevelt was the prime policy mover for the U.S. putting down the Philippine Insurrection.

2. Corrected your misuse of the word “genocide”

3. Pointed out your distortion when you took it upon yourself to edit a source’s words with your own.

4. Gave detailed information about several of your sources’ lack of scholarly knowledge in this area.

5. Corrected your misperception that Gore Vidal is a historian.

6. Corrected your assumption that no one is taught the Philippine Insurrection.

Basically, that’s a solid two days work for anyone on an internet site.

[Rascal]

… especially since there are so many sites out there where nothing but crackpots spew facts and figures that have no correlation to reality (please refer to Rascal’s posts!)

Still having trouble to seperate sites hosting information and the origin of the very same information, mostly from credible sources as shown by the references? Wonder what you learn at those “private” universities …

(My response strictly refers to the sources linked by me in the other threads)

[fred_smith]

Rascal:

haha thought that would get your attention though it is true.

Second, that quote about private university was my deliberately adopting the tone and words of someone I was trying to lampoon and was not in fact my particular educational background. I grew up poor and had to work as a child to supplement my families meager finances, picking cotton and coffee when not indentured to a fishing vessel anchored near the shore of my small village.

Finally, I forgot what finally was but…

[Cold_Front]

@fred smith

Vidal as far as I know is quite left wing. It is like quoting Rush Limbaugh to lefties and expecting them to accept his views and rhetoric. Unfortunately, I have read Vidal’s books as well and am not quite sure how “historically factual” they are. I guess they are more meant to give a “flavor” of the period so I would question their use as historical basis in fact.

Fred, Vidal is off his rocker. Even left-wingers, his natural constituency, think he has lost it. Here are two recent online articles in Salon that discuss Vidal’s zaniness.

Gore Vidal joins the black-helicopter crowd: With his defense of Timothy McVeigh as a heroic freedom fighter in this month’s Vanity Fair, the contrarian goes postal on us once and for all.

At its most florid, which is frequently, Gore Vidal's prose style resembles the well-oiled musings of a professional wit on the banquet circuit, who regales his moist, heavily breathing listeners with elegant postprandial tales just outr

[HakkaSonic]

Cold Front, I’m getting tired of your lax attitude toward research. But I do have a heart, so I’ve gone out and found an example of how the best brains in America love Gore Vidal:

Bryant Gumbel: "He may the foremost wordsmith or man of letters in this country. I mean he is really…

Katie Couric: "Incredibly erudite.

Gumbel: "He’s really smart. I mean, he’s really, really smart. It just kind of makes you feel like…

Couric: "Have you read many of his books?

Gumbel: “I like reading his stuff. His essays are fabulous. His essays are fabulous. He’s incredibly literate. He’s a great guy.”

– Exchange on Today, June 22.

Get more at:
secure.mediaresearch.org/news/n … 30719.html

[Comrade_Stalin]

[quote=“HakkaSonic”]But I do have a heart, so I’ve gone out and found an example of how the best brains in America love Gore Vidal:

Bryant Gumbel: "He may the foremost wordsmith or man of letters in this country. I mean he is really…

Katie Couric: "Incredibly erudite.

Gumbel: "He’s really smart. I mean, he’s really, really smart. It just kind of makes you feel like…

Couric: "Have you read many of his books?

Gumbel: “I like reading his stuff. His essays are fabulous. His essays are fabulous. He’s incredibly literate. He’s a great guy.”

– Exchange on Today, June 22.

Get more at:
secure.mediaresearch.org/news/n … 30719.html[/quote]

Like wow! That’s just, you know, totally…

[Cold_Front]

Good stuff, HakkaSonic. I have no choice but to yield before your withering assault.

[HakkaSonic]

Hey, he used “really” four times off the bat, and then repeated the same sentence twice. Can’t beat that!

[Comrade_Stalin]

My favorite pistol, the Colt 1911 came out of the Philippine Insurrection.

"The idea for the 1911 was brewed in the Philippines. While fighting the Moro tribe in the Philippines the Army ascertained that its trusty .38 Long Pistols was incapable of putting down an attacker. The Moro tribe before engaging in battle spent many hours meditating and taking very potent drugs. This left them impervious to pain and would commonly be able to take 3-4 .38 bullets before going down. Therefore the Army needed a new plan and a new pistol.

They turned to the professional gunsmiths of the civilian world. After setting the parameters of the weapon they were looking for the Army accepted designs from Colt, Luger, Savage, Knoble, Bergmann, White-Merrill and Smith & Wesson. All these designs were subjected to thorough tests by the Army Ordnance dept. and Browning

[Jack_Burton]

[quote=“blueface666”]My favorite pistol, the Colt 1911 came out of the Philippine Insurrection.
[/quote]

Insurrection to some, War of Independence to others…

freedom fighter or terrorist…