Masters in TESOL

Work Teaching English in Taiwan
21

I think it’s a great idea to go back for an MA, in TEFL/TESOL, education, or anything really. Although there are fewer and fewer university positions these days, there is also a lack of skilled and certified persons to fill those positions. So, an MA will get you a position IF you also have the qualities and abilities.

One good thing about teaching with an MA is that you are able to get away from the “racial” teaching positions. Many people complain about the preference for blond, blue-eyed teachers in cram schools, kindergartens, and children’s schools. But if you have an MA, your teaching options are much broader.

Speaking from experience, I think that you should study something that you are interested in, rather than worry about the certification aspect. An MA/TEFL can be boring and you will need to supplement it with something you are really interested in. But when you are applying for positions in universities in TW, an MA in a related topic is also acceptable.

One other bit of advice is to make sure that you enjoy teaching before you embark on this educational and life plan. There are so many who feel trapped here in TW because they don’t want to be teachers anymore. If you are not a teacher, don’t go back for an MA/TEFL.

22

BUT – 99% you will still be teaching only “conversation” or “listening”, because even with an MA in TESOL, you “naturally” cannot teach grammar as well as a Taiwanese teacher. This is pretty much true wherever you end up. In an English department for a university, you have the potential to get other classes as well but don’t even think about being free of the dreaded “ying ting” (“English listening”) class.

Very difficult to get full-time (visa-granting) university jobs with an MA, unless it’s in a very remote place, AFAIK.

23

To get work in a cram school, yes. But if the OP is interested in working in universities, perhaps a MA TESOL would be sufficient. Check michaelturton.com/Taiwan/college_qual.html for more info. Big drawback: not many openings at universities, and an MA isn’t good enough for many. They’re really looking for PhDs who are into publications.

One thing that puzzles me is that the OP seems to be currently studying undergrad. He says he was adopted and lived in the US for a large portion of his life. The thing that puzzles me is that if at least one of those parents was a US citizen, the adoption was full and final, and the OP was 18 or younger on February 27, 2001, then he automatically became a US citizen, and could in fact be a dual citizen of the US and Chile. travel.state.gov/family/adoption … o_457.html. If this were the case and he could get a US passport, it’s just so much easier to get a legal job teaching English in Taiwan. Actually, the OP wouldn’t need to get an MA after all, he could just use his bachelor’s and work at practically any private schools he liked. I think that after a year or two of working in Taiwan, he’d know whether teaching was the path for him.

If he eventually did get an MA TESOL and some experience teaching, I believe that he would also be able to find work in the US teaching English to ESL students.

24

Perhaps the OP is thinking about the policies of many Middle Eastern countries when he mentioned his place of birth. If you are applying for a visa for Saudi Arabia or the Arabian Gulf kingdoms, you must declare your original birth country in your visa application. I don’t think that this is an issue when applying for a visa or residency in Taiwan. If you have a US passport, you are an American citizen, even if you are not white :astonished:

25

I may be jumping a bit here, but I’ll bet he’s thinking about his English (accent and/or usage). It doesn’t matter if you have an accent like Ricky Ricardo, though, as long as you’ve got a US passport. I had a good friend who had a heavy Spanish accent but was a very dedicated teacher and did quite well for himself teaching English in Taiwan – with that US passport, of course.

26

Well I do have an American passport.

I mentioned becuase my friend from Brazil whose hald Brazilian half American basically had a lot of trouble in Saudi becuase he was born in Brazil. Douglas thou art teh korrect. Plus I know Taiwan, like any first world country, has a lot of rules concerning who can and can’t teach. I think it is better to be on the safe side and get a “No” answer now becuase of that than to go to Taiwan and be denied an ARC becuase of that and think “Gee I could have just asked this question.” So forgive me if I asked something that wasn’t important.

I don’t have a spanish accent though I do have a New York one. My roomate asked about it when I lived in Jingmei.

Why would I want an MA TESOL? Well I want to be a professor one way or the other, thats not too puzzling is it? Yes I have considered teaching ESL in the United States but I loved Taiwan and living in Taiwan and I want to go back. I’m not a bastard or a theif. I realise my students would be real people with real goals, I am not out to cheat or fcuk over anyone. That returns me to the question of MA TESOL. Why? To be able to earn my pay and do my job better. I do like school I must confess, so a year at a place I like (New School) dosen’t bother me.

To Quentin:" I’m very interested in going back home to Chile or some other Spanish-speaking country in Latin America, but I’m not sure if I can make money in such Hispanic third-world countries. "

I am sure actually, sure that I can’t. The exchange rate is not kind.

“Taiwan is better because even if I am not a teensy bit Chinese in my heritage, and don’t care about Chinese intellectually or culturally, I can still make a lot more money off of them than I can off these lazy South American fucks.”

Well if I hated Chinese culture or langauge, I probably wouldn’t have wasted my undergrad years majoring in it. I could have taken Arabic instead and be busy ratting them out to the CIA for big bucks.

Seriously though, I like Taiwan. Goremon can get quite annoying, but I like Taiwan.

I am not actually that brown, though I did tan pretty good when I was there. I got more comments about my hair/eyes “Hao hei!” and a good number of people asked me if I was part asian.

Becides, Taiwan has some good money, but I hear there are better places fore pure greed. Saudi is probably better.

To all: Forgive me if I seem forward or too direct. I should probably explain why. I work on wall st. (doing mortages). I’m used to giving you the whole story up front, unedited, everything you need to know. I got over the fear of directly talking about money long ago, in fact its one of the favourite things to talk about on the street. Sort of reminds me of the “pilgrims” from Heart of Darkness. It was shocking at first but now it’s not so bad. Money, Money, Money, Money. Didn’t hurt much did it :stuck_out_tongue:

This has been a very long post.

27

Kushluk,

I don’t have anything to add here that hasn’t already been said, and I’m not a teacher in Taiwan so I am especially unqualified. But I just want to welcome you to Forumosa. You sound like an intelligent, thoughtful person, and we need more of your kind around here.

Gao

28

Okay then, based on your latest:

It’s great to do an MA in TESOL if you’re interested in teaching…just be prepared to go on and do the “full monty” (the Ph.D.) if you’re serious about getting an academic job. You could consider doing the MA now, then teaching in Taiwan for awhile, and doing the Ph.D. later on, but for academic jobs in the States, most of them require a Ph.D. these days (even if the ad says MA, don’t believe it!) Jobs for MAs are mostly adjunct (heck, lots of Ph.D. jobs these days are only adjunct as well).

If you are thinking about teaching at the high school or lower level in the States, an MA will do just fine, but they’ll eventually make you do those ridiculous “general education” courses to get a teaching certificate. Never mind you can teach those courses, you still have to do them!! :smiley:

For Taiwan – it’s mostly Ph.D. jobs available these days as schools seek to upgrade to university status. I think actually having a lot of knowledge about English teaching would psychologically disqualify you for cram-school work unless you are a very, very calm person… :smiley: …there are schools that respect professionalism but it’s tough to find those jobs up front, and a year of “apple…banana…” might put you off teaching entirely.

If you end up teaching in a vocational school in Taiwan (as I did before getting my doctorate), I found that those years of experience were accepted by American high schools as actual experience, which raised my salary when returning to the US as a high school teacher (needed a “real” job to get a mortgage!) for a year. The trick was mentioning the students’ age range (13-18).

HTH
IL

29

Thanks for the information everyone.

After reading a lot here and on Daves ESL I think what I might do is do an TEFL certificate and teach for a while as sort of a try out process, then if I like it move on to larger projects like the MA. I will be comming back to TW one way or another for another semester at Shida as “independent study” for the last few credits of my Chinese major and becuase I’d like to get my level in Mandarin higher. I had a scholarship last time and my connections at Shida are very good.

Taiwan HS teacher require a BS in education right? People often say “the same as in the united states” but I’m not sure what this means. Diffrent states have different things they care about. NY’s criteria for teachers is very strict. You need a Masters, I think, in Ed. Plus there is all kind of beauracratic mess to fuddle with. I thought of becomming a HS teacher for Chinese or Spanish but I was turned off by the run around. Much rather teach in university where I spend more time reading about the things I want to read about.

But anyway, I digress.

If I did work in a Taiwan uni/voc school communtiy college type organisation as an adjunct or part timer would my salary be enough to live on? Could I legally get privates to teach or would that be illegal?

I read something along the lines of being hired at a TW high school is technically illegal becuase they cant get you an ARC. They have to get a private school to “hire” you, then you teach at the HS? Does this sound right?

I’m kind of confused now :stuck_out_tongue:

30

Andre -
Given your background and abilities, you might seriously consider employment other than teaching “english” here on the island.
There are multi-nationals that might be quite interested in what you are bringing to the table.
Your language and financial background, coupled with your SA knowledge (trust me, here, a little can go along way) could open some doors with Taiwanese, or other, companies seeking business opportunities.

And personally, given Chiles rising economic situation, and its very excellent wine, if it were possible, you might re-think the negativity re:the Chilean/Argentinian area. But, of course, thats your decision.

Wecome to Forumosa.com and enjoy the ride.

31

The OP wrote that he would like to teach English in Taiwan. Why would anyone assume that he prefers to work for a multinational? Further, why would anyone assume that it is better to work for a multinational?

Why is it necessary to write teach “English,” with the English in quotation marks? Are English teachers not teaching English then, but some form of English in quotation marks?

The moral high ground is awfully crowded on some of these boards. If you think your winkie is more handsome than everyone else’s, then post a picture and prove it.

32

[quote=“Tomas”]The OP wrote that he would like to teach English in Taiwan. Why would anyone assume that he prefers to work for a multinational? Further, why would anyone assume that it is better to work for a multinational?

Why is it necessary to write teach “English,” with the English in quotation marks? Are English teachers not teaching English then, but some form of English in quotation marks?

The moral high ground is awfully crowded on some of these boards. If you think your winkie is more handsome than everyone else’s, then post a picture and prove it.[/quote]
Tomas -
Quite a lot of huffiness…not at all like your normal self.
I leave it to the OP to make any and all decisions regarding his career path or paths. But I was simply stating what were, IMO, logical points for his consideration. Too bad for you if that somehow offends you.

As to the “quotation” marks, make of them what you will. ts my post and I will use whatever I think is appropriate to convey what I wish to convey
.
As to your last paragraph…is that “humor”?

33

Yeah, sorry about that TC. I forgot to take my zen pills this morning, and wrote something passive-aggressive. Lo siento, amigo.

I think that this guy knows his own mind, and he’s decided he wants to work in ESL. It can be a great career (no, that is not a typo) for people who are in love with teaching and who enjoy dealing with language learning issues.

It can also provide a much better lifestyle than working for an MNC. I think that if someone has a passion for the work of a financial consultant, well then go to work for a bank or private wealth management company. If you find that you aren’t well-suited to corporate life, go out on your own or to a small company. And so on. But if you aren’t a good fit working for an MNC, why go there?

I’ve done both (corporate jobs and ESL work), and I much prefer the life of an ESL teacher, with all of the different variations that may entail. I also enjoy working in business, but as a trainer or outside consultant. One of the beauties of working in ESL in Taiwan is that, assuming your legal ducks are in a row, you often have the freedom to get involved in other projects, e.g. translation, editing, writing, corporate training, consulting, etc, that may also get you out of bed in the morning with a smile.

I don’t buy the assertion that spending one’s life in ESL is a lesser choice, unless ESL is something that isn’t a fit with our natural talents. Lots of folks posting on these boards seem to have only encountered English teachers that don’t meet their standards, whatever they are, of professionalism. I acknowledge that their opinions have been formed by what they feel to be the stereotypical English teacher in Taiwan, and that, as with every profession, there are some people who shouldn’t be involved. At the same time, I’ve been around a bit myself, and I’ve seen enough examples of teachers who respect their work, their students or clients, and who prepare well and deliver something that brings real benefits to others, to form my own opposing opinion.

I think the critics often ignore that fact that unprofessional and unethical “professionals” exist in every profession. High barriers to entry don’t universally equate to uniform quality. Conversely, low barriers to entry don’t universally equate to low quality. And, as many of the posts on this thread indicate, good ESL positions do have barriers to entry.

And yes, my last sentence was an attempt at humor. A failed attempt. Pisay.

To the OP: If you want the lowdown on buxiban teaching, check out toshuo.com The writer has posted a few well-written and informative pieces on working in buxibans. I know several public school teachers and uni instructors who have given up their jobs to work in buxibans, and find buxiban teaching much more to their liking.

34

Right, and he was simply asking for clarification on what you were trying to convey. However, I suspect his question was rhetorical, as it is perfectly obvious you were conveying your continued disdain for ESL teachers in Taiwan.

If only the entirety of the Taiwan foreign community could be businessmen like you…what a perfect world that would be.

35

Tainan Cowboy - And what kind of employment would be available to me at a MNC do you think? I’d like to teach English, but I won’t rule anything out. Paying for grad school without a loan wouldn’t suck. Are we talking like Supply Chain Management? What’s the general pay for that kind of work? Hours? Sorry about the interrogation.

As far as my job now goes, basically what I do is mortgages. I talk to people, get their info, shop, find a rate. Wash, rinse, repeat. I’m a bit pissed off at my bank right now for not paying me on time. But I wont get into that. Ask me anything about it and I’ll be happy to tell you. I also telemarketed, hit the phones, hard.

I was hired at this other bank maybe 10 months ago, then the bank dropped off the face of the Earth as I did more interviews (I did a whole bunch). The bank in question did mortgages for citizens of other countires wanting to buy land in NYC, their Chinese person had left for Canada and they were in a lurch. I wasn’t sure my Chinese was good enough. But in any case the whole bank went crazy during the whole Sub Prime lending crunch, and the head of personel quit. I got called up by his sucessor, but by then I had this job which I am not being paid properly by right now. :confused: I might go back to a company like that after some time overseas to make real money (their median loan is 500k and we as LOs take about 2-4 percent of that) for a year then pay for grad school or some real estate investment, probably in Puerto Rico. There are barriers to entry for other LOs since they can’t babble in Chinese/Spanish/French whatever your specialty is, and basically your customers trust you with their land and money. There is also a slightly different process (no social sec #).

Anyway, I am babbling. What kind of Multinationals are we talking about? I don’t know much about how that works, vis a vis being a wai guo ren employed in one.

As you may know, earning a living in NYC is very, very, very expensive/difficult. I frankly wonder why so many people work themselves to death to do it. NYC is a great place, but the underinvestment in housing by Rudy, Bloomberg (though he is trying to help this) and basically everyone has really hurt normal people. Rent is outrageous here. That realisation actaully led me into thinking about real estate investment, becuase if I were to pay 1700 dollars for a decent apparment in Manhattan while working for a Pyramid Financial (the one that does loans for forigners) I may as well just invest in buying an appartment building somewhere and collect rental income. My monthly payments would be far below 1700 for the places that I am looking into future Real Estate investment in (Puerto Rico). Basically I looked at some of these appartments and though “Jesus christ, I could buy a HOUSE for that much per month somewhere else.”

Chile/Argentina is a matter of time. I just want to find a valid economic way of getting there, no or very small burden on mom and pops. Chilean citizenship solves a lot of headaches with visas according to some guy on Dave’s ESL since in Chile the company that hires you owns you basically b/c your visa is linked inexorably with your employment. When you lose the job you lose your right to stay. As a citizen I could get a job at University or a school like anyone else.

Tomas - You are right. I do like education and schools. I’m kind of a 書呆子 and as a child I was even more of one. I’d like to teach english, and upgrade my own education too. I loved living in Taiwan becuase it was a totally different experience. I read a lot about Taiwan before I got there, and some of it sounded scary. Though once I was there I wasn’t that scared at all, in fact it was a lot of fun. Corn and hot dog on pizzas, Karaoke, cheap and good food, and lots of freedom. It was fun.

I tutored english a little bit and found it not bad at all. They were both 13/15 years old (brother and sister). I would definately do it again. The sister was terrific, she went to a bushiban. No chinese accent.

I dunno… I like schools and learning. I liked tutoring so I think i’d like teaching. Living in Taiwan gave me a chance to just enjoy life a little, and I miss that. I contrast that with this year which was TOUGH, I got a job on wall st, and would sometimes come back around 12. I came back twice around 2 am, those times we went to the Queens office to hit the phones, then I got back up and went to school as I had a full schedule. I barely had time to wipe my bottom, ha. If I were to take a multinational corperations job, I’d take it to pay for stuff, and gain expereince working with people (in that regard both of them aren’t that different). I think ultimately I want education to by my career, but PAYING for those degrees . . . aye there’s the rub.

I hope… this explained things?
hehe Andre :stuck_out_tongue:

36

[quote=“gao_bo_han”][quote=“TainanCowboy”]As to the “quotation” marks, make of them what you will. ts my post and I will use whatever I think is appropriate to convey what I wish to convey.[/quote]Right, and he was simply asking for clarification on what you were trying to convey. However, I suspect his question was rhetorical, as it is perfectly obvious you were conveying your continued disdain for ESL teachers in Taiwan.
If only the entirety of the Taiwan foreign community could be businessmen like you…what a perfect world that would be.[/quote]GBH -
I believe your suspicions re: a rhetorical question on Tomas’ part are correct. As is his prerogative.
Also, I have no “disdain” for anyone who is working and earning a living.
I am certainly allowed my opinions. And as I don’t move in “english teechur” social groups - due to age and having a family - my main opinions of this group are formed by word of mouth from my Taiwanese friends and this forum. We’ve only had 1 ‘Happy Hour’ that I know of here in Tainan and the few teachers I met there were all delightful company and pleasant to meet.
You might be confusing me with someone else. The “english teechur” gig here on the island is a pretty sweet deal. Thats been made abundantly clear by folks with much more knowledge and experience in this than I have. Although I think the sweeter deal is owning an “english” school. But thats not something any and all can do. Bravo for those who take this plunge and take this risk.
As I mentioned, I was just throwing out more for the gentleman to consider.
No slight to anyone was intended.

37

Problem is/may be that you will require 2 years of documentable experience in a fairly similar job to get a non-teaching job in Taiwan (on top of the bachelor’s degree from a university they consider to be okay, i.e., on their list).

When you do land such a job, you’re looking at a much lower per-hour wage (generally) than is true for teaching. An office job in, say, international trade might pay NT$40,000 a month if you’re a good negotiator, while most teachers would not think much of $40K a month even though they would be working, say, 25 hours a week as opposed to the office worker’s 40 or more.

38

You’ve made that comment in various threads. No one is questioning you are “allowed” your opinion, obviously. But don’t expect to be given a pass every time you make some flippant remark. We don’t let the kneejerk liberals get away with it in the IP forum, now do we?

If you really don’t intend to slight anyone, or whatever, then why not just write English teacher, spelled properly and without quotes? Deliberately misspelling the word and/or putting it in quotes certainly comes off as an insult.

39

GBH -
You think too much.
I ain’t changin’.

I like you.

40

I have been teaching on the island over ten years without a teaching degree. I am currently teaching at a bi-lingual school. I am pondering going back to graduate school to get a MA in TESOL. I am not interested in teaching at an international school so I really do not see the need to acquire a teaching certification, as I can already teach in private schools here through my marriage visa.

My question is, what jobs are available in Taiwan with a MA in TESOL? If people are working on the island with a MA in TESOL, I would like to know what they are doing.

Thanks