Maybe Taiwan could take a page from Hong Kong’s playbook on juries

Discussion Greater Forumosa
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Hey folks, longtime Taipei survivor here. Did five years in the city before moving to Hong Kong last year. Life’s definitely different here (the government is much more equitable, nonsense like what happened to Sam Kahn wouldn’t be a thing) but what really surprised me recently was getting a jury summons.

I’m not a citizen, just a gweilo with a work permit and a taste for Carnegies (it lives on in the SAR), but apparently that’s enough. You live here long enough, you pay taxes, you get to sit on a jury with everyone else.

It’s not perfect, but I have to admit, it feels pretty good. There’s something about being treated like a full participant in the system that’s… refreshing. It says, “You live here, you contribute, you get a voice.”

Compare that to Taiwan’s new lay judge setup. It’s citizens only. Doesn’t matter if you’ve been there a decade, paid into NHI, run a business, or raised a family. You’re still an outsider when it comes to the justice system. Judges decide everything, and foreigners just have to trust they won’t get railroaded.

That might sound fine in theory, but then you remember cases like Zain Dean’s. The media went into full feeding frenzy mode, the court process felt opaque, and a lot of people walked away thinking the result had more to do with nationality than facts. I can’t help but wonder if things might’ve gone differently if Taiwan had a real jury system with long-term residents involved.

Hong Kong’s model isn’t perfect, but it at least tries to reflect the community that actually lives there, not just the passport holders. Taiwan’s system still feels closed-off, which is odd for a place that’s constantly talking about attracting international talent.

God forbid… can Taiwan learn something from Hong Kong?

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:face_with_raised_eyebrow:

I don’t know if we should be adopting anything from the ‘People’s Republic’

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oh mate, different, very different systems. HK system is all based on residency, not citizenship. After 7 yrs you get PR and you are as good as it gets with citizenship rights (whatever there are left though in the patriotic SAR). The only thing missing is the HKSAR passport which can only be acquired with chinese nationality AND PR in HK (like the MSAR).

The court system in HK used to be one of the envy of Asia due to strict adherence to common law and regular visiting foreign judges sitting from the lowest to the highest court, but now more and more “mainland” concepts and interpretations are getting into the system, and it is increasingly unlikely for non-Cantonese or at the very least Mandarin speakers to be actually selected for jury duty.

I got my jury duty notice some 4 years ago even as a non-PR and non Chinese speaker, I did not however get any summons. That did happen to my colleague, a PR but not Chinese speaker. He presented hisself to the High Court as on the writ but was excused immediately when he was asked about his Cantonese proficiency.

Courts in HK best not to be taken as an example anymore, like the police. Other things still work great, like the actual Household registration system all based on residency, not nationality (this still kinda is to allow foreigners to integrate while keeping most Mainlanders out, even though this is also been getting eroded), while TW puts also the onus of nationality besides the residency for Household registration (bloody relic of ROC system…), but TW was really never a place for “”“outside”“” immigration like HK and less Macao were/are.

I speak as a former HK resident and now proud Taipei resident. Hope you can still enjoy the city, if you don’t care about politics and have a good job, it can still be a great place to live, I miss a lot of things there, but some disappeared, and the mood did change a lot, I notice it more and more with my brief work visits.

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Who the hell wants jury duty???

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Plenty of trials happen in English. Courts have a parallel English language track. See: all the white solicitors in HK.

For 98% of things it still is. Yes, the NSL is fucked, but most people aren’t getting charged under this. I’d way rather do an assault or defamation case in HK than Taiwan. You can’t say Hong Kong’s courts are biased against foreigners when foreigners are in the jury.

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Most people are also self censoring.

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or leaving

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Self censoring like they did to Zero Day Attack (or was that government-directed censorship)?

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Statistics indicate that 35% of people who emigrated from Hong Kong since the 1980s ultimately returned to the city

Seen this before. They’ll be back.

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Civic duty, my man. I’ve seen too many foreigners get absolutely wrekt by the court system in Taiwan (which heavily favors locals).

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It sucks, I won’t pretend otherwise. But honestly, jury duty is one of the few safeguards we have to keep trials fair. It forces ordinary people to have a say, instead of leaving everything in the hands of judges or the system alone. It’s inconvenient, sure, but it’s also what keeps the justice system honest.

Exactly, and Taiwan should really adopt a more common law legal system.

The problem I see is it (Hong Kongs legal system) becoming more Taiwanese/Chinese (both are really similar).

There are many foreigners in Taiwan who are very proficient in Chinese and would love to play a bigger role in the community.

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Zain Dean? Imagine if there was at least one foreigner on the jury. No one could say he didn’t get a fair trial. He was screwed from the beginning. Lucky to get out of Taiwan in time.

To be fair… it is not the PRC contributions that he is talking about. It is the British common law.

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To be honest… reading this makes me angry and sad at the same time. What a shame such a good system was ruined by the Chinese.

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Praising hk now is a bit much in terms of justice and what not, no? Used to be the best in china for sure. Some amazong points, now it’s ever more just simply China. Or going that way. I’m not sure a new system in an evolving country like Taiwan should be trying to improve itself using hk as an example of anything, except what not to do. should taiwan want to tie itself to a sinking ship of sadness?

I wouldn’t mind some taiwanese reforms of justice as it’s corrupt and horrible as fuck here in terms of actual justice, but I’m not sure we are best to look at a Chinese city that is quickly degrading on most levels…

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for most civil and business parts is still working very well. Business especially. The arbitration centre of HK is one of the best in the world.

But as soon as you get into criminal with even the vaguest connections to national security, that’s it. you are done.

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And there’s a reason for that. That’s why Taiwan should learn from Hong Kong in that aspect.

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No, it really isn’t “just China”. It’s not what the British left, but it’s still an autonomous jurisdiction.

You should travel to both mainland China and HK then report back. Try doing the following in mainland China:

  1. Opening a bank account
  2. Importing something/dealing with customs
  3. Standing trial for, say, assault
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I wouldn’t want to face a jury of Taiwanese Aunties.

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I’m going more on how hk is now vs before, becoming way shittier. True, China proper is worse (obviously) but that isn’t exactly a good crutch to lean on :frowning: poor hong Kong. Fucked, then fucked harder. Hk is going towards China, not away from. Thus, I wouldn’t even transit through China anymore due to how risky their “justice” is.

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That’s some serious main character syndrome. Why would they take interest in you?