This might come as a bit of a surprise to the Forumosans who know me personally, but after a very long deliberation and many discussions I’ve decided to sell up, quit business and study as a doctor.
I’d like some advice from those who have studied medicine at any point, either in Taiwan or abroad.
My priority no. 1 is that I remain at my house in Da Keng. As a British citizen, is it stupid for me to consider training in Taiwan no matter how much I love living here? Ultimately I want to be working in Taiwan long-term. Is my being a foreigner going to work for or against me when looking for a job? (My Chinese should be near-native fluent by then). Are there any other foreigners (excluding overseas Chinese) known to be working as doctors in Taiwan?
I’m a stubborn bugger and I’ve pretty much made up my mind, but I guess I’m looking for some reassurance that what I’m doing is worthwhile and not completely ridiculous. Yes, I know the pay will be less in Taiwan but if that’s what I was worried about I wouldn’t be quitting business.
Ilary. I say go for it. You seem to be well aware of the likely hindrances and hell, medicine in itself is a damned hard road, let alone in a second language. Still, dreams are dreams and should be pursued.
I’m a qualified nurse and Chinese medicine practitioner and had at one stage wanted to study western medicine. In some ways I regret not doing it now.
[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]Ilary. I say go for it. You seem to be well aware of the likely hindrances and hell, medicine in itself is a damned hard road, let alone in a second language. Still, dreams are dreams and should be pursued.
I’m a qualified nurse and Chinese medicine practitioner and had at one stage wanted to study western medicine. In some ways I regret not doing it now.
Being in Da Keng, you are probably looking at China Medical College. It is a good school, though not top-ranked. I know several people who have studied there (including my wife).
The question you are going to have to get answered very quickly is if you can study in the med programs as a foreigner. If one school says no, keep looking at other schools. Deciding which people can study what here is a little complicated (as you probably already know).
As for foreign doctors working in Taiwan, I think I have seen a couple in the Chang Gung system. My wife says there are also a few in the Mackay system. That’s about it, though.
Go for it. Just check where you can study and what you need to do to get in there (College Entrance Exam, School exams, validation of your degrees, etc.). Also, think of your specialty. As I understand it, specialties are chosen rather early here.
I’ve already done a lot of research and found out there are a few hundred foreign physicians currently working in Taiwan, of which a handful are Westerners.
China Medical College is currently the top school on my radar. I’ve also heard many good things about China Medical College Hospital and had some excellent experiences of my own there.
I’m certain that I want to work in a public hospital and specialise as a surgeon. This seems to be a competitive specialisation but I’ve never been scared of hard work.
I know from the off that this is going to be a long, long uphill struggle; ultimately, Taiwanese institutions love the bits of paper that I don’t have. Although I have a highly technical work background in mathematics and applied physics, I quit academia at high school (with good grades) and only returned a few years later to take one year of a BA course (for A level/college diploma equivalency). I will have to get through on the basis of guanxi, excellent references, consistent 97%+ on Chinese courses and sheer bloody-mindedness. Even if it means I have to find a BSc course in Taichung that will take me first, I’m far too arrogant to take ‘no’ for an answer.
Do you guys live in Taichung? I’d love to buy you both dinner and bend your wife’s ear about the whole process of getting licensed in Taiwan. My foreign friends and family think this is a great idea and support me wholeheartedly but have no useful advice to offer. My Taiwanese friends are depressingly money-driven or pessimistic about the whole thing: ‘you won’t get into a university’, ‘hooray! doctors make so much money!’ etc.
[quote=“YAJ”]Being in Da Keng, you are probably looking at China Medical College. It is a good school, though not top-ranked. I know several people who have studied there (including my wife).
[/quote]
We’re in Taipei now, but go down kind of regularly to visit. My wife studied Pharmacy there, but knows some people in other specialties. They do start with the undergrad (BS) programs so only having H.S. should be ok.
You do realize that medicine in Taiwan is a seven-year college/university type degree, right?
The only hesitation I’d have with getting my qualifications in Taiwan would be being able to transfer them to a Western country if/when you wanted to go back. It’s a huge investment of time and money (although probably not as much money as doing med school back home), and it’s not always so easy to get your credentials recognized if you have a foreign degree. You might want to just check out what the situation would be with that before making a final decision.
For your first degree of any level in Taiwan, you are treated as a foreiger, so your knowledge of Chinese, etc. etc. would be rated using a “foreigner’s” scale. For the second and subsequent degrees, you are by law treated the same as Taiwanese students (in practice, I suppose it varies by school and who you know in the department). I never had a foreigner in class when I taught at Taipei Medical College, just two Overseas Chinese who I believe had Taiwanese passports. The one guy must have had dual citizenship. He spoke English like an LA gang member (natively, though) since he had grown up there, and couldn’t read or write Chinese. But it didn’t prevent him from graduating in Medical Tech (he wasn’t in the actual medical doctor program). Remember as in all Taiwanese academic endeavors, getting along with your classmates is crucially important to getting things done.
I’m looking at 7+ years wherever I study. Realistically it’s going to be 12+ years before I can start any serious work in my chosen speciality and I’m fully prepared for that. I’m 23 so it’s now or never.
I’ve considered the issue of transferring qualifications abroad and concluded that it’s a non-issue; my ultimate intention is to practice in Taiwan. I have no reason to ever go back to the UK and if I spent any time away from Taiwan, it would be in America. I verified that there are ways to take my Taiwanese qualifications to work over there so I’m quite satisfied.
My Chinese is roughly at the level of your average Taiwanese student’s English and I can read/write. I’ve already signed up for a six-month intensive course starting next month because I don’t want to be hindered in any way by language. I’m pretty comfortable about this side of things. China Medical University have said that assuming I’m accepted, a letter from my Chinese teacher is sufficient to prove that I will handle the course.
The one thing that is worrying me is my lack of a degree. I won’t find out for sure until everything opens again and I can speak to someone higher up at CMU, but ‘degree diploma’ is plastered all over their foreigner entry requirements (including undergraduate entry). I have my fingers crossed that it’s either a visa requirement (I don’t need a visa from them) or just a mistranslation/flexible. Que sera, sera.
That was a lot of really useful info, ironlady. Thanks! What were you teaching at Taipei Medical College?
I’m not sure how they can require a college degree to get into college, but, this IS Taiwan…
I taught Spanish and English at TMC (now TMU) in the mid-90s. Used to have the famous research writing course where after giving each student a unique, rare disease the first class meeting and requiring them to find a book, a journal article and a Web reference in Chinese and English for it for the next class to be able to continue, my class size dropped from 120 to like 40.
I know I’ll get the ‘WHAT?! are you SERIOUS?! this is Taiwan!!’ etc. comments when I say this, but I’m hoping that common sense will ultimately prevail.
[quote=“ironlady”]I’m not sure how they can require a college degree to get into college, but, this IS Taiwan…
I taught Spanish and English at TMC (now TMU) in the mid-90s. Used to have the famous research writing course where after giving each student a unique, rare disease the first class meeting and requiring them to find a book, a journal article and a Web reference in Chinese and English for it for the next class to be able to continue, my class size dropped from 120 to like 40. [/quote]
And say “hi” to the Easter Bunny when you see him, will you?
Seriously, good luck with your efforts. But be prepared that the attitude of medical students in Taiwan is often “I got into medical school, so now I get several years off.” At least you should get fairly good marks in English, though… (I used to just give my native speaking kids a schedule of the days we’d be showing ‘Seinfeld’ in class and tell them to go do something more interesting on the other days, or on all the days, depending on what they preferred.)
Thanks a lot for your help and encouragement, ironlady et al. I’ve enrolled for volunteer work at two hospitals and I’m hunting through my paperwork for anything that says how generally awesome I am (I’m scraping the barrel now with 50m swimming certificate and under-7s donkey race). I’ll let you know how it goes in due course.
Wouldn’t a blase attitude amongst my fellow students work in my favour? I’m an optimistic guy and I’m convinced that once I actually manage to get into a medical school I’ll have a great time.
[quote=“ironlady”]And say “hi” to the Easter Bunny when you see him, will you?
Seriously, good luck with your efforts. But be prepared that the attitude of medical students in Taiwan is often “I got into medical school, so now I get several years off.” At least you should get fairly good marks in English, though… (I used to just give my native speaking kids a schedule of the days we’d be showing ‘Seinfeld’ in class and tell them to go do something more interesting on the other days, or on all the days, depending on what they preferred.)[/quote]
Llary I would urge you to think again. You’re awfully young: how can you be so sure that you want to commit yourself to a lifelong career in Taiwan? Those hard-earned qualifications will be worth about tuppence halfpenny back in Blighty, or elsewhere, you surely realize.
Wouldn’t it make sense to go back to the UK and get a solid, scientific medical training? And for free!
You must have been to the doctor here… neon signs and antibiotics for the common cold… I have no medical training whatsoever, but a lot more clue about basic health, hygiene and medication than most of the idiots practising in Taiwan.
You could do an elective year here; and your UK qualifications would be valid if you wanted to come back.
I appreciate the concern but assumptions that Taiwanese medical qualifications are universally worthless put me on the defensive. I’m arrogant and stubborn but I’m not beyond listening to sensible advice. However, how is a medical programme in Taiwan any less scientific than a similar Western programme? How are all these Taiwanese people about the world getting by on their worthless qualifications?
Taiwan is one of the countries whose medical graduates can hop straight onto a US residency or graduate program through ECMFG (Education Commission for Foreign Medical Graduates). I can study my seven years basic training in Taiwan then take the USMLE/CSA and receive a US medical license to train on a specialist residency in America. I have no idea how foreign qualifications are assessed in the UK and I don’t much care.
The Taiwanese doctors I have met in public hospitals have been universally caring, polite and stunningly intelligent. I’m sure that like most people, I could give you some horror stories about private healthcare in the UK and USA to rival Taiwan. And call me naive, but the profiteering attitude towards antibiotics and general public health in private practise makes me want to do something about it.
I have no interest in returning to the UK and nothing to return to. The process of coming to Taiwan on an investment visa took a lot of time, effort and sacrifice. I have a life in Taiwan and a reasonably successful business to support myself. If we’re talking from a purely practical, financial standpoint, then the reality of a medical education in the UK is far from ‘free’. My income is over the threshold for LEA support which means I have to pay full tuition fees. With the higher cost of living and all things considered, a similar program of study in the UK would cost at least three times more.
As my ultimate aim is to work in a Taiwanese public hospital, the money is irrelevant. I need to be able to work comfortably with Chinese/Taiwanese speaking colleagues and the best way to do that would seem to be medical training in Taiwan.
So my friend-with-the-contacts finally got back to me and it looks like we’re good to go. CMU require a high school GPA above 3.0 (so foreigner = American? Nobody else uses the GPA system…) which they seem to be able to convert from my UK GCSEs. There is then a weird entrance system that is 50% interview, 50% examination (chemistry + biology).
The exams are held pretty soon so I’m going to have to book myself into one of those exam-passing cram schools and act as cannon fodder for a load of bored high school kids.
Cheers for all the help and encouragement, guys!
[quote=“YAJ”]The question you are going to have to get answered very quickly is if you can study in the med programs as a foreigner. If one school says no, keep looking at other schools. Deciding which people can study what here is a little complicated (as you probably already know).
Go for it. Just check where you can study and what you need to do to get in there (College Entrance Exam, School exams, validation of your degrees, etc.). Also, think of your specialty. As I understand it, specialties are chosen rather early here.[/quote]
I missed the bit about your entitlement to work and live in the US earlier, so my remarks about returning to the UK were ill-placed. Also, if you did go to Britain to study, you would probaby have to pay foreign student tuition fees, and you would get no grant because you don’t live in an LEA’s area. So you are right that this would be more expensive.
But the doctors, the system? You say that hospital doctors here are invariably polite and intelligent… well, they don’t have much time for individuals, pack them into their office three or four a time, don’t answer questions in my experience unless really pushed, and invariably prescribe something (I think that Taiwan patient culture says if you don’t get medicine from the doctor, you’ve been cheated, like you went to a shop and paid but didn’t get anything for your money). Most of the consultation time is taken up by the doc tapping laboriously away in English (what on earth is that all about :loco: ) at his computer.
And unless I’m mistaken the same system that produces the intelligent hospital doctors also generates the back alley mountebanks: Uncle Zhou’s Paediatrics and Lao Wang the Urologist. These places are dotted around all over the xiangzi, along with binlang stands, raw meat selling trucks, and restaurants that do their washing up on the side of the road. People go to these questionable establishments because the service is quicker, I suppose… They don’t prescribe medicine, they just take it out of a cupboard and give it to you, so you have no idea what it is; no matter how much you insist on explanation, there are always two or three more kinds of medicine than the doctor has accounted for. And with kids, they grind it all up into one powder, so you can’t administer the medicines separately. They put the powder in funny little sealed wraps, and they always include antibiotics (even for eg common cold) and stomach medicine (Why?), and often paracetamol.
I guess these guys have put in their study time, but in terms of making people well I’d say they’re pretty clueless. Do you really want to be part of this screwed up system?
Sorry, I was a bit tetchy that day after hearing a third of my friends tell me that Taiwanese qualifications were worthless, another third tell me I’d never get into a Taiwanese school and the other third wax on how great the pay was going to be… (PS: if we have to talk about money, do you know a trainee NHS doctor after tax makes less than a reasonably busy English teacher in Taiwan?)
You’re right, and I think the problem with medicine in Taiwan is summed up by the majority reaction of my not-so-good-but-very-typical Taiwanese friends: ‘wow, I wish I could be a doctor! You are going to make so much money’. They mean this to be a compliment, but I find it pretty depressing.
Then again, while Taiwanese hospital doctors might be lacking bedside manner, I genuinely feel safe in their hands. The UK has chronic funding shortages and privatisation issues, Canada is having similar problems and the US is just funked. Taiwan doesn’t look all that bad on a global scale. A few years back my grandmother went into our local hospital (Liverpool Royal University Hospital). She wasn’t exactly in great shape and had various complications that made her sensitive to medication. An arrogant and overworked doctor refused to check with the nurse what medication she was already receiving and gave her something for kidney stones. And yup, you guessed it: everything reacted, she ended up with a burst stomach ulcer and died not long after. Our family have had so much go wrong at this place that we affectionally call it The Morgue aka Liverpool f’ing Royal.
Yes, I do want to become a part of this screwed up system for the very reason that it is screwed up. And when all’s said and done, I have a choice. If, after some time working here, I find it impossibly frustrating then I can always leave. If I can make the tiniest difference then I will try - and that’s why I want to become a doctor.
PS: I hope that somewhere there really is a urologist named Lao Wang!
[quote=“smithsgj”]And unless I’m mistaken the same system that produces the intelligent hospital doctors also generates the back alley mountebanks: Uncle Zhou’s Paediatrics and Lao Wang the Urologist. These places are dotted around all over the xiangzi, along with binlang stands, raw meat selling trucks, and restaurants that do their washing up on the side of the road. People go to these questionable establishments because the service is quicker, I suppose…
[quote=“llary”] Yes, I do want to become a part of this screwed up system for the very reason that it is screwed up. And when all’s said and done, I have a choice. If, after some time working here, I find it impossibly frustrating then I can always leave. If I can make the tiniest difference then I will try - and that’s why I want to become a doctor.
[/quote]
You made a passing reference to this in your earlier post. You may be able to make a difference: as the only Westerner on the course/job, you will get special attention and maybe a special hearing. No-one could fail to admire your attitude. Good luck to you mate.
I say go for it. You only live once and this is something you clearly want to do. If you want a medical career in Taiwan, then what better place to study medicine than Taiwan? Not only will your Mandarin be amazing by the time it’s all said and done, but you’ll have the unique advantage of being a native English speaking doctor in Taiwan. Also, you’re carrying with you a Westerner’s perspective on personalized medical care, and no doubt even born and bred Taiwanese will find that approach refreshing and welcome. You’ll have no shortage of patients, that’s for sure. Good luck to you!
