Military duty

Legal Dual Nationality
41

[quote=“bismarck”][quote=“cfimages”][quote=“bismarck”]
Seems Churchill was right afterall.

I’m sorry, is it just me or have all the f***ing men died?[/quote]

Gandhi lived to the motto “ahimsa paramo dharma”. It translates roughly as “non-violence is the highest virtue”.

A patch of land is not worth killing for.[/quote]
I wonder if you still would’ve held that view if the boys who died holding off the Japanese from invading Australia had shared your views, or if the Americans had felt similarly after Pearl Harbor.
Gandhi’s ideas of non-violent resistance only worked because he had a population of 200 million verses a few thousand British soldiers, functioning within the realm of a colonial system that was way past it’s sell by date. I wonder if he would’ve maintained that opinion if a million man Chinese army had poured into India slaughtering every living thing to take a patch of land that “isn’t worth killing/dying for.”

And are things like freedom, liberty and democracy no longer worth defending from invaders neither? Shit, if we held this view seventy years ago we could’ve saved millions of lives and just let the Nazi’s have Europe. Afterall, they were just looking for a little Lebensraum. Hardly a principle worth killing for.

It may serve our purposes here to remember that the Rape of Nanjing and countless other atrocities in Europe and Asia during the war occurred only because the regions/countries in question didn’t have the means to defend themselves.

Besides which, no one is asking him to kill anyone for a “patch of land”. His country requires a few months of service, which needn’t be in the military. Instead, he’s opted to be a perpetual student to avoid the draft and proudly tells of how at 32 his job at least helps him to pay for his studies. Whereas he could serve in another service (like NIA), and actually do something he might find useful, build contacts, make new friends and then get on with his life without having to think about it anymore.[/quote]

I’d wager that the majority of those Japanese and German soldiers would have rather been home with their loved ones, not out fighting. That’s why people who avoid their military service should be applauded and others encouraged - because after all, you can’t fight a war without soldiers. And no, I’m not naive enough to think it will ever happen.

But when the leaders and decision makers who decide to go to war can sit safely in their bunkers 5000 miles away while sending conscripts to fight for them is just plain wrong. The sooner people get the balls to stand up to them and refuse to join the military, the better.

I would however, agree with targeted assassinations that’d take out the Hitlers and Saddams of this world before they start invading other countries.

42

I’ll happily shoot men, rape ladies and bayonet babies if its for something I believe in. There’s no way in god’s green earth that I’d do it for a bunch of jumped-up wee nyaffs in suits who think they know what the fuck they’re doing.

43

‘Revving up Buttermelt’? I knew you hadn’t, I was taking the piss in light of your other comments.

My views too. Mebbe skip the raping ladies part. You simply have to defend your family, that’s all there is to it. If, because of our wealth, we have become isolated from that reality (pay kids to do it instead), then we have no stake in saying how it is done in our name.

Hitler? Hmm, sign me up for some of that land girl or Bletchley Park stuffs. Falklands … nah. That’s where it all falls down, though. Chain of command is necessary, pretty much. What’s the alternative? Diplomacy? Waiting until the wolf is at the door then whipping up some kind of ‘Dad’s Armys’?

Unless … Let’s go back to basics. Privatise armies.

44

Hey guys,

I’ve just turned 29 and each time when my family or anyone comes to my family and started mention about me then goes on about “me should do my national service” is really pissing me off. Although my uncle has the connection in the high rank military he could put me through the “volunteer sector” which is what he did for his son. I have 4 sisters, 3 are married and youngest one wants to get married but mum is not happy. I"ll cut my story short, dad had stroke (a severe one) about 6 weeks now. Dad has a big business to run and mum is incharge at moment (it’s tough working with own family members), so it’s kind of not working out because everyone is kicking up a stink because my sisters all want their own life so is me.

Two of my sisters are perminately living in Australia, me and my youngest sister has just came back and my point is military service is a waste of time. IF my youngest sister got married plus my dad is ill and I could be exempted from military duty (I think, that’s what my other sister has told me). But my mum wants my younger sister to help more in the business while I do the military service, and at this point it’s obvious that my mum is being a control freak.

If i was going to do the military duty, i rather get in the so called “navy seal” like, because it’s the toughest of all (army, navy, airforce, volunteering). I guess it’s a way of impress chicks when they ask you “oh, so which service did you do?” and reply with “I was in the Navy Seal”… NOW THAT"S IMPRESSIVE. If you told them that “I was in the army”, is just like “oh, I see”… ANyway it’s a joke when everyone has to do the military duty.

It’s not the toughness that i am worry about, it’s such a waste of time the way Taiwaness government organise it. I rather join the defence force in Australia and get a better pay with a better skill that can be used in the defence force or civilian life. You got to ask yourself one question “do you feel lucky? punk!” actually, that’s not the question… The questions is that does serving military duty gets you anywhere when you finish your service??? YOu look at the guys these days in taiwan local streets, a bunch of males selling side street restaurant/food/clothings/stuffs. I said to my other sister, "look at those top 100 wealthest people in the world, and did any of them server their country at any point of their life? and did BIll Gate serve in the defence force? did the founder of IKEA served in the military???

Anyway, I am just telling you guys how frastrated I am with the whole military dury issue and you will not hear me talking about it again. Once is too many.

Happy to hear some thoughts.

45

This is quite possibly the most germane question I have heard this century. Just imagine a defence force that could harness the power of flatpack furniture! The implications of this are very, very …

Elusive.

(A quick google reveals that Ingvar Kamprad is Swedish, and almost all males of his vintage were conscripted. He also supported the Nazi fascist party in Sweden. A good egg, then.)

46

It’s quite different where I’m from. If you do that, most people will think you’re bullshitting because you’re not supposed to tell that you were/are one of the elite. Cloak and dagger stuff, like. :sunglasses:

47

[quote=“section61”]Hey guys,

I’ve just turned 29 and each time when my family or anyone comes to my family and started mention about me then goes on about “me should do my national service” is really pissing me off. Although my uncle has the connection in the high rank military he could put me through the “volunteer sector” which is what he did for his son. I have 4 sisters, 3 are married and youngest one wants to get married but mum is not happy. I"ll cut my story short, dad had stroke (a severe one) about 6 weeks now. Dad has a big business to run and mum is incharge at moment (it’s tough working with own family members), so it’s kind of not working out because everyone is kicking up a stink because my sisters all want their own life so is me.

Two of my sisters are perminately living in Australia, me and my youngest sister has just came back and my point is military service is a waste of time. IF my youngest sister got married plus my dad is ill and I could be exempted from military duty (I think, that’s what my other sister has told me). But my mum wants my younger sister to help more in the business while I do the military service, and at this point it’s obvious that my mum is being a control freak.

If I was going to do the military duty, i rather get in the so called “navy seal” like, because it’s the toughest of all (army, navy, airforce, volunteering). I guess it’s a way of impress chicks when they ask you “oh, so which service did you do?” and reply with “I was in the Navy Seal”… NOW THAT"S IMPRESSIVE. If you told them that “I was in the army”, is just like “oh, I see”… ANyway it’s a joke when everyone has to do the military duty.

It’s not the toughness that I am worry about, it’s such a waste of time the way Taiwaness government organise it. I rather join the defence force in Australia and get a better pay with a better skill that can be used in the defence force or civilian life. You got to ask yourself one question “do you feel lucky? punk!” actually, that’s not the question… The questions is that does serving military duty gets you anywhere when you finish your service??? YOu look at the guys these days in taiwan local streets, a bunch of males selling side street restaurant/food/clothings/stuffs. I said to my other sister, "look at those top 100 wealthest people in the world, and did any of them server their country at any point of their life? and did BIll Gate serve in the defence force? did the founder of IKEA served in the military???

Anyway, I am just telling you guys how frastrated I am with the whole military dury issue and you will not hear me talking about it again. Once is too many.

Happy to hear some thoughts.[/quote]

I am older than you and the same goes in my life:
"Did you finish army service? "
“Are you married? You need to marry and have some boys to continue your family lineage, to honour your family, etc etc , to prove that you are a man”
In other countries you have the peer pressure, here we have family pressure, we need to do a lot of things that we don’t believe just to prove our “worth”.
And I tell all of them: “Mind you business, I may need to do army service, marry, but I am in no hurry”
There were times that I wished to be born in other countries, in Western countries you don’t draft the people to the army, you don’t force someone to get married, you have choices, here in Taiwan, do it or you are a disgrace to our country and to your family.
I for once am swimming against the tide, I am not ashamed and no one is going to put me down.
What if I ran away, never serve the army or never get married ? Inside I feel great and that is what really bloody matters

48

Well why didnt you can shoot President Bush then? A war mongerer that caused a lot of loss of life over what? Those weapons of mass non exstance.

49

Well why didnt you can shoot President Bush then? A war mongerer that caused a lot of loss of life over what? Those weapons of mass non exstance.[/quote]

I sent him a pretzel.

50

Yeah, especially around the middle to end of 1945.



Not so cocky after you’ve had fascism stuffed up your arse.

These lads? Pretty sure they were quite happy.

Although, I do see your point. I think these lads would rather be at home, but that’s another topic entirely.

However, I’ll never see how delaying your life for 14 years after school to get out of a year’s service is making any other point except for, “Mommy I’m too scared the bad man will shout at me.”
Besides which, I’m fairly confident the Tutsi in Rwanda and Hutu in Burundi were quite happy guys like me were there. If only there were more of us in the DRC, then perhaps that problem could also be solved. But hey, perhaps you’re right. Before peace keeping troops came to the area they were slaughtering women and children. Much better to stay at home and watch the news, just like my pussy government did regarding Zimbabwe.

51

I’ve no idea what the point of that was bismarck.

52

[quote=“lotzuni”]I am older than you and the same goes in my life:
"Did you finish army service? "
“Are you married? You need to marry and have some boys to continue your family lineage, to honour your family, etc etc , to prove that you are a man” [/quote]
No worries. I think you’ve answered that question long ago.

[quote=“lotzuni”]In other countries you have the peer pressure, here we have family pressure, we need to do a lot of things that we don’t believe just to prove our “worth”.
And I tell all of them: “Mind you business, I may need to do army service, marry, but [color=#FF0000]I am in no hurry[/color]” [/quote]
:roflmao: Now that is the understatement of the year!

[quote=“lotzuni”]There were times that I wished to be born in other countries, in Western countries you don’t draft the people to the army, you don’t force someone to get married, you have choices, here in Taiwan, do it or you are a disgrace to our country and to your family.
I for once am swimming against the tide, I am not ashamed and no one is going to put me down. [/quote]
Yeah, but they forgot to tell you in the “Dream of living in western country” brochure that certain things that guys here think are socially acceptable will get the snot kicked out of you in second break.
Think Taiwanese conscription is tough? You would’ve loved high school in a western country.

But aren’t you basically doing that already? IMHO you’re not manning up on anything. It’s all good and well to take a moral stand on conscription, but there are alternatives to serving in the military (which has been noted several times on this thread alone). And you keep harping on about marriage, so I take it you’re either into an alternative lifestyle or a confirmed bachelor, which is all good, but besides it being a personal problem, perhaps you’d serve yourself better if you manned up there to and told your parents to back the f*** off, you’re a man and you’ll live your own damn life as you see fit (without having to run away or other such malarky). And although this may seem harsh, think about it: It’s pretty hard to take a guy seriously as a man if he doesn’t act like one (which, btw, has nothing to do with serving in the military).

53

No surprise there.

54

No surprise there.[/quote]

I’m not sure what relevance those photos have to the discussion at hand. Posting photos of mushroom clouds, dead/wounded bodies and celebrations by the victors is simply gloating and seeing others as less than human, or less worthy of living. I dearly hope your sense of manhood is not formed by those images in any way - if so I pity you.

EDIT - You do realise that if the Japanese and German conscripts of the 1930s had have refused to serve, there may not have even been a WW2.

55

No surprise there.[/quote]

I’m not sure what relevance those photos have to the discussion at hand. Posting photos of mushroom clouds, dead/wounded bodies and celebrations by the victors is simply gloating and seeing others as less than human, or less worthy of living. I dearly hope your sense of manhood is not formed by those images in any way - if so I pity you.[/quote]
Aiyou! The point was: You said they would rather have been at home. I said, by 1945 you’re probably right. Or, without soldiers, the Germans and Japanese would’ve run all over Europe and the Pacific, but due to many brave souls who put their lives on hold and lived in the most horrific conditions for several years (most of which never mad it home) we have the freedoms we enjoy today.

My sense of manhood has nothing to do with this thread, war or military service. It has to do with values I was taught by my parents and trying to be a good husband and father.

Yes, you’re right, and then para-military and military groups close to their respective dictators would’ve shot the hell out of them. There would’ve been a WWII regardless. The vast majority of those soldiers were more than happy to fight for the “glory” of the Fuhrer and the Emperor. It simply wouldn’t have been possible to have the military success they initially had if the soldiers weren’t motivated and morale was low.

Now if you can find a way to do away with crooked politicians (eager to wage war for profit) and ultra nationalism, then I’d be all ears and your worldview might actually be practical.

To be clear, I share your point of view that the world would be better off without things like conscription, nuclear weapons and war. But that’s not the reality of the world we live in, nor a view shared by many countries (or at least the maniacs running them). It seems so simple a solution that we all just get along, that the PRC just let Taiwan go along it’s merry way, the North and South Korea join up and live together in peace, that various tribes within national borders in Africa respect each other enough to live together peacefully and that everyone just respect each others beliefs, trade fairly and live peacefully.
But simple as it may seem, it’s not reality. And running away from something out of cowardice instead of doing something concrete about it is not a solution either. It’s one thing to refuse to be conscripted (I personally would’ve done anything in my power not to be conscripted into the old Apartheid SADF to fight a bullshit war against Angolans and Cubans that had nothing to do with me, but to suit the purposes of a racist government), but is it still acceptable that others do so? How is that being “nobler” than politicians who make conscription laws and pack their punk kids off to foreign countries to avoid the very laws they enforce on others?

If the majority of young men really don’t want to be conscripted, they’d serve themselves (and actually lend legitimacy to their “principles” instead of looking like mommy’s boys) much better to organize and demonstrate and follow several other lines of “peaceful” methods to force the government to bend to the will of the majority. But I don’t see thousands of conscripts burning their call up cards, walking the streets demonstrating against conscription or having sit downs. They either go and serve or bitch about how unfair their lives are.
Or perhaps, the majority of young men don’t see anything wrong with a year’s stint in the army, or perhaps they don’t see it as that bad that they’re actually willing to organize and kick up a stink about it.

56

Until you have been in a real war, fought face to face with the enemy, don’t brag. Less than an year in the army doesn’t make you more man than the others. If being a soldier is so imoprtant go to Iraq instyead of being here in Taiwan hiding as a buxiban laoban. Besides, dogs that bark rarely bite, so Bismack, fall from your high horse. You never been in a real war!

57

[quote=“cfimages”]I’ve no idea what the point of that was bismarck.[/quote]Cfi -
Yes…yes I think you do know what that was about. I seem to remember you posting quite knowledgeably about your serving at a service club back in Australia. If I remember correctly, you spoke well about the gents in the club, former Diggers all.

So I do think you know what Bismarck is talking about.

====
lotzuni -

IMO, based on what you’ve posted, are best off never getting close to military service. I pity anyone who would be in service with you should they actually have to depend on you to do something that required a conscientious effort. That appears to be beyond the scope of your abilities. It is people who express opinions such as you do who make it damn clear that Taiwan is not worth a single solitary expenditure by any allied force to save should the flag go up and the PRC decide to waltz over here and restore their brand of order to the island.
The current US mil intel belief is that less than 25% of the current military would actually fight for longer than 12 hours shoud the PRC/PLA attack here.
IMO, that about 10 hours too long. The sad fact is that there are good soldiers here who would make the ultimate sacrifice for their country. But they are in the small minority. These troopers will be sold-out by worthless mommas boys who piss and moan about not having their Hello Kitty pajamas and mommas wipe their sorry asses at night rather than grow up and do their duty for their country.
Their are things more larger in context than self. Ideas that give richness and worth to ones life. It is apparent that you, and a lot of other Taiwanese(and others) have no ability to understand things such as this.
You say you are “not ashamed.” How can you be “ashamed”?
You have no concept of what personal shame is all about. That concept, personal shame, along with accountability and responsibility has been bred out of your psyche. You’re not the only one here like this. Just another glaring example who is all too quick to confess it without a clue.

Its all about you isn’t it? All about you.

58

Do any of you think Tibet is worth fighting for? Not really asking the question from any ‘angle’. Just wondering what people think. The Dalai Lama is fighting in his own way, I guess. But Tibet will be entirely eradicated in a couple of generations.

Personally, I’m pretty glad that there were a bunch of conscripts that fought in the second world war. My company has a memorial service every year, and former employees come to lay poppy wreaths on our memorial. We give those guys some respect.

Yet there is also Britto/Yankish arsewittery that has one of my childhood pals fixing trucks in Afghanistan at the moment.

It’s also odd how anti-military people often support extra judicial murder/assassination of heads of state. Really don’t understand that one.

59

[quote=“TainanCowboy”][quote=“cfimages”]I’ve no idea what the point of that was bismarck.[/quote]Cfi -
Yes…yes I think you do know what that was about. I seem to remember you posting quite knowledgeably about your serving at a service club back in Australia. If I remember correctly, you spoke well about the gents in the club, former Diggers all.

So I do think you know what Bismarck is talking about.

====
lotzuni -

IMO, based on what you’ve posted, are best off never getting close to military service. I pity anyone who would be in service with you should they actually have to depend on you to do something that required a conscientious effort. That appears to be beyond the scope of your abilities. It is people who express opinions such as you do who make it damn clear that Taiwan is not worth a single solitary expenditure by any allied force to save should the flag go up and the PRC decide to waltz over here and restore their brand of order to the island.
The current US mil intel belief is that less than 25% of the current military would actually fight for longer than 12 hours shoud the PRC/PLA attack here.
IMO, that about 10 hours too long. The sad fact is that there are good soldiers here who would make the ultimate sacrifice for their country. But they are in the small minority. These troopers will be sold-out by worthless mommas boys who piss and moan about not having their Hello Kitty pajamas and mommas wipe their sorry asses at night rather than grow up and do their duty for their country.
Their are things more larger in context than self. Ideas that give richness and worth to ones life. It is apparent that you, and a lot of other Taiwanese(and others) have no ability to understand things such as this.
You say you are “not ashamed.” How can you be “ashamed”?
You have no concept of what personal shame is all about. That concept, personal shame, along with accountability and responsibility has been bred out of your psyche. You’re not the only one here like this. Just another glaring example who is all too quick to confess it without a clue.

Its all about you isn’t it? All about you.[/quote]

All this criticism means nothing if you’re here in Taiwan. You are not participating in the war either, fighting with your fellow men in Iraq are you ? You are watching the war from afar. Doing nothing and brag about manhood stuff and calling me selfish.

60

lotzuni -
Yea, I am in Taiwan. However, I have done my time in the military and beyond. And that time included a “real war” and several more that had all the accouterments of war.
Don’t be so fast with your fingers in trying to disparage the experiences of other to justify your own short-comings. You’re just digging yourself in deeper.