I checked out the website… It stresses that the members are made up of multi-cultural individuals. That is a great word. Multi-cultural… Multi-cultural… Multi-cultural… It has a nice ring to it. Bygolley, maybe I will join
I think its a bit strange that some of you are comparing an Asian magazine for Asians with “white” whatevers. Being Asian means coming from one of the Asian countries. Being “white” only denotes a skin colour. I don’t quite think its the same thing.
You could be South African, Latvian, Australian, Canadian or Norwegian. I mean, where’s the common denominator there? Only skin colour.
And although this is going to sound… fluffy: I think there are actually very good reasons for a “woman’s magazine” to be by Asians for Asians. The majority of the English language women’s magazine out there are geared either for white women (Cosmo, Glamour, Mademoiselle, etc, etc…) or, more recently, there have been some magazines dedicated to African American women. Now, many women’s magazines give… well… beauty tips: how to put on make up, take care of your skin, dress, and so on and so forth. Unfortunately, the advice given by the standard woman’s magazine does nothing for an Asian woman. (Asian women have very different facial features - especially eyes, different body shapes, different skin coloring, different dietary needs - ie. many Asians are lactose intolerant…) So that’s why a magazine like Jade, or A. might exist. My 52 cents.
Technically, you are correct. But skin color in this respect IS the common denominator. Same as when all Asians (Koreans, Japanese, Vietnamese, Chinese, etc.) are lumped together as Asian.
I wrote to Ellen of JadeMagazine yesterday about their tagline in question… here is her response (she can sue me later):
“damn, all that b/c of one tag line. actually, that’s why we changed our tag line to “a fresh perspective for Asian women” a while back since we knew that it wasn’t all “by” Asian women, but it is specifically “for” Asian women (although all are welcome to read it).”
And they will be sending us an updated banner to replace the current one as seen.
What disappoints me most is that the person who started this discussion forum – who so far is still an anonymous poster, which tells me that he or she is afraid to own his/her words – appears to have done so for the sake of stirring up trouble. I have a problem with people like that.
On top of that, I explicitly offered the email addresses of both Founders of Jade Magazine (see above) and encouraged him/her to contact them directly. I also suggested that since they are my friends, they may be even more receptive to answering such a question since I directed that person to them.
And yet, he/she didn’t bother to ask the source. And yet, it bothered him/her enough to start this discussion. And so, I asked them myself. And I believe their response is quite a responsible one.
I don’t believe that Ellen and Audrey started this magazine for racist intentions, as the starter of this forum implied. I DO believe that if something bothers you enough to beg the question, that you should ASK the source FIRST and see what they say before you instigate a questionable attitude that you cannot validate to be true.
If Ellen had written back and made racist comments, then this discussion was warranted. Otherwise, all I can gather is that the poster has got some serious issues with HERSELF (himself) and her own ethnicity.
Ethnic groups are warranted. As are sports groups, special interest groups, and self-help groups. There is a common thread amongst them all, and to further my point, read this.
If I am a golfer, and I walk into a basketball social gathering, what is it that I am expecting?! If I walked into a Jewish community meeting, why am I there? To complain that I don’t feel like I “belong” is the most retarded thing I’ve ever heard of! And I am tired of hearing it!
One should join “other” groups IFF and only iff they have a sincere appreciation to learn about them. Same reason why ALL kinds of people come out to celebrate “Asian Heritage Week” in the U.S., or Hispanic celebrations, or African American events, etc.
Gus Adapon, the other Founder of this website, is Filipino-American. He was the Webmaster for CAPT – the Chinese American Professionals in Taiwan http://www.capt.org.tw – for a year before founding ORIENTED with me.
Now what was HE doing there???
If Gus came in with the attitude of – WHY ISN’T ANYONE ROLLING OUT THE RED CARPET FOR ME AND IS IT BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL RACISTS TOWARDS NON-CHINESE-AMERICANS?? – then you know what? Most likely, he is not going to be received with open arms.
Yes, racist people exist in amongst all races, but to generalize the entire race because of it is only hurting the person who did the generalizing.
And as to the comment someone made above, "uh… who said anything about bashing Taiwanese people… " --> I did, to prove a point I was making in the previous statement. I wasn’t implying that anyone on this board was doing so.
ouch… okay, I’m not going to continue with this topic because it seems I’m “Stirring up trouble”, but in all honesty all I did was post my reaction to seeing that banner. This is the “Rants and Raves” section of the forum, and I was “Ranting” and “Raving”.
“Yes, racist people exist in amongst all races, but to generalize the entire race because of it is only hurting the person who did the generalizing.”
I agree.
Okay, I’ll go away now, sorry for the trouble.
My name is Claire and I’m new here. I got an email from Christine just a few minutes ago because she linked to what I wrote in ThoseBrownEyes about the importance of publications/support groups focused on minorities.
I went through this forum from the first entry down to right’s final comment and I tried not to take sides. I took on a position of an observer. And I think it is a tragic misunderstanding which reflects the human soceity as a whole.
I never had the chance to see Jademagazine’s ad, but just reflecting on the phrase “for Asian Women written by Asian Women…” I would agree that it does raise a lot of question.
“Does it mean that white women are not allowed? Are asian men allowed to see it?”
And then after we talk and think about these questions we move to the next phase, which is to answer them ourselves.
“How could they exclude white women? And even exclude Asian men.”
Finally we become agitated and we make a conclusion.
“This is racist. This is discrimination.”
And what happens after that… well, God help us. And this is a shorter version of how wars begin… like in the Balkans and the Middle East.
And after we throw our best shot at each other in defence of our ideals towards equality and fairness we come to realize that JadeMagazine’s ad did not say anything about excluding white women or asian men. It could imply, and we could assume. But that’s all there is to it.
All it said was “for Asian Women written by Asian Women…” No more, no less.
It was just a phrase.
It might facilitate a more intelligible discussion if we do away with the term “race”. I am not advocating Political Correctness (PC) here. I am advocating using terms that have some meaning. I think that, in the minds of many (including me) the term “race” had a sound scientific and physiological basis.
While in graduate school, I worked as a respiratory therapist in a university hospital and this stimulated a general interest in medicine (very definitely at the lay person’s level). By scanning the medical and intercultural literature I became aware of the fact that the scientific basis for the term “race” isn’t so solid after all.
For an example of the confusion between “race” one the one hand, and socio-economic status (SES) or culture on the other, read the following from a National Institutes of Health (US) bulletin. The headline reads:
Race Still a Factor in Healthcare Disparities
But when you read the item, it turns out that,
Poverty and culture continue to be important factors in determining the quality of healthcare received, said Dr. Harold P. Freeman, associate director of the National Cancer Institute and director of the Center for Reducing Cancer Health Disparities. (nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news … _1778.html)
Not another word about “race” in that item.
For an idea of how inexact and confusing the idea and term “race” can be, go to http://www.nichd.nih.gov/cpr/dbs/sp/harris.htm and read, Demography’s Race Problem, David R. Harris, University of Michigan. Presented at the NICHD panel, “Visions of the Future: A Town Meeting on New Directions in Population Research” Annual Meeting of the Population Association of America March, 2000
Medical scientists are now raising questions about the term “race” and what, if anything, it means in scientific research. At http://deainfo.nci.nih.gov/new internet/advisory/pcp/pcp0497/minutes.htm, we find the following:
Against an historic backdrop of 250 years of slavery, 100 years of legalized segregation, and more than 30 years of freedom under the law for all Americans, scientists have attempted to research issues related to race in the context of definitions that have come out of the history of slavery.
- For at least a century, American medical and public health researchers have used race as a marker for biology and have documented race-associated differences in health and in disease prevention. Ethnicity, which takes into account social, cultural, religious, linguistic, dietary, and other variables, has also been used to determine reasons for differences in health outcome. There is, however, a lack of scientific consensus on the nature of race and ethnicity, their definitions, and how we use these categories to measure variables in medicine.
These definitions are socially and politically determined, yet we are conducting scientific inquiry based on them.
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Since socially constructed and assigned racial definitions are being used in medical teaching practice and research, it is important at this juncture to ask several key questions:
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How valid is it to use a socially constructed category of human beings to make scientific conclusions that imply biological differences?
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What are the consequences of the abuse of such a socially-determined classification?
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What are the assumptions that scientists make when they study racial categories?
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What are perceived to be racial variations in health status may in fact be functions of social factors, such as socioeconomic status (SES), culture, access to health care, diet, nutrition, or other factors.
Some researchers have advocated removal of the term “race” from all medical and public health research.
- Addressing these complex issues in light of history and the current use of these terms is particularly timely; it is important not only to accurately diagnose and treat cancer and other diseases, but to address continuing social inequalities in health care delivery and access.
If the publications in question had been referred to as publications designed to appeal to people of a certain perceived socio-cultural group, or a perceived ethnic group, would the reactions have been as strong? Would this discussion have even come up in the first place?
In today’s world “Race” is a term loaded with emotion and little, if any, objective meaning. It’s very difficult to have rational discussions using words that stimulate such strong emotions. We can emote. Or we can think. It’s very difficult to do both at the same time.
Did I miss something - did someone propose another word?
race
- group of humans: any one of the groups into which the world’s population can be divided on the basis of physical characteristics such as skin or hair colour
- fact of belonging to a group: the fact of belonging to a group of humans who share the same physical features such as skin colour
Encarta
All the previous posters have valid points and I’m not sure which way I fall. Being an ABC myself, I obviously can’t use my own reaction to the “tag lines” of Jade and CAPT as indicative of the population as a whole.
The people I would love to hear from, though, are people who do not consider themselves Chinese American but have, in fact, joined CAPT (I know that there are occassional non-Asians that attend CAPT events). Did the name deter them at all? Did they feel as if they were not invited because of the name? What actually induced them to join?
Again, I have to say that in the realm of women’s magazines, there is some rhyme and reason to being “for Asians”. I just don’t think that a non-Asian woman has to worry about things like - “how to make your unlidded eyes look bigger”, “the right colors for your yellow complexion”, or “10 things to do with your straight, thick, totally inflexible hair.”
quote:
Originally posted by rian: [QB]Did I miss something - did someone propose another word?race
- group of humans: any one of the groups into which the world
Honestly, I am amazed that a catchy slogan can bring on so much negative firepower. Why do people get so heated up about a statement of fact? There is nothing bad about it. Its not like the slogan used a derogatory term for Asian women.
And what’s with this exclusion thing - for Asian women therefore everyone else not Asian and not a woman is excluded. DUH yes, so what? Cigar afficianado - for cigar lovers - are we going to complain next that the magazine excludes non-smokers?
I remember someone I spoke to once being shocked that I had referred to myself as a “half” - half Asian half European. Its just a statement of fact. This whole PC, walking around on eggshells crap is so stupid.
Along those lines (by Jolie), I never feel the least bit offended or think any negative thoughts towards ads (or organizations) that may say, “For Jewish People By Jewish People” or “For Latinos By Latinos”, etc. Somehow, I don’t get the impression that others do either.
But as a Chinese American, however, I sometimes DO feel that resentment towards me and my Chinese American friends.
Which brings me to my next question which I have always, always, wanted to ask/know --> Is there some sort of hidden RESENTMENT towards Chinese Americans by people who are not Chinese American? If so, why?
I can’t prove it, but I really do feel that it exists. Sometimes when I am amongst mixed crowds or non-AA crowds, I feel a sense of uneasiness if I should bring up any topics or references made to CAPT.
And yet, when I’m around my Korean-American friends and they talk about their KA community activities, or if I’m around my Chinese friends from Hong Kong (back in college) who talked about their campus organizations/functions (usually held in Cantonese), I do not feel any resentment towards them, EVEN IF they behave in any ‘exclusive’ sort of way. I’m not a ‘part’ of their community, so what?
It would be easy to write this off as my being ‘sensitive’, but I have felt this constant undertone both in the U.S. as well as in Taipei. I sometimes even feel like I need to downplay my ethnicity because of it.
Anyone care to take a stab?
I’m not Chinese, Chinese Murkin or even Murkin, but I have many Taiwanese friends and colleagues from a variety of walks of life and social classes, and I perceive a very condescending and arrogant stance toward what they invariably describe scathingly as “bananas” or “yellow bananas” (are there any other kinds?) – white on the inside, yellow on the outside.
IMO, it is a form of reverse snobbery based largely on a presumably innaccurate preception of young Chinese Americans in Taiwan as having had it easy and of having f*cked their way across the Pacific on the infamous “Love Boat.”
Or something like that. I do know that they are not welcomed by a great many of the locals here and as I said, my local friends are a pretty diverse bunch but seem to largely share this viewpoint.
I have not seen the same snobbery against Chinese Americans among the non-Taiwanese population.
What is this “love boat” of which you speak. I have never heard of it. Please explain.
I don’t really know what it is in reality. What I’ve been told, on the other hand, is that the love boat is kind of an institution whereby rich Chinese Americans pack their offspring off on a cruise to Taiwan to find a spouse “among their own kind” – other Chinese Americans, that is. Girls who come over on the love boat tend to have a reputation as easy lays.
I’d be interested to hear the truth.
ABCs… Is what loveboat said true? Do your parents give you any kind of pressure to marry another ABC? It seems like all of my ABC friends back home never had this situation (or they just didn’t tell me about it).
Look, at the risk of appearing to undervalue the sentiments expressed re: the identity issue, and who ‘can’ and ‘cannot’ read the said mag…
do you really think the publishers CARE who buys the magazine as long as they sell some copies?
The issue of exclusion ONLY comes into play if there are people at the cash register of the store forbidding anyone EXCEPT Asian women from buying the thing. Can’t see that happening, so it becomes a purely monetary/financial issue.
If the market is there, people will buy the product and it will do well - and yes we can conclude that “A mag for Asian women by Asian women” is a viable marketing concept and certainly a lucrative market for publishers/cosmetics houses/clothes manufacturers etc. If not, the whole thing will go belly up. What could be fairer than that?
Forgive me if I am missing something, but I don’t think it is an issue of race/ethnicity or gender at all. It is a business thing.
Let the market decide…
Sunny, your posting made me laugh! The answer to your first question is… yes! Very much so, lol!
I think before you start making these wild accusations (wait am I hearing an echo here…) and make yourself look a little silly (or allow me the privilege of making you look silly, good thing you’re not registered!), you might want to spend a little more time at that site and maybe engage in dialogue with the founders of Jade Magazine. So funny!
Believe it or not – and I know this may be really hard for some folks to swallow – sometimes people get together and create projects (publications, websites, organizations) because they really believe there are products and services and issues as well that are currently not being addressed in mainstream society, and they feel that it is important to address them over and above the drive to make a profit from it (though it helps to think that the efforts CAN at least make enough to be sustainable to keep the services coming).
We have a personal connection with the founders of Jade Magazine because the premise (and structure, organization, history, timeline) behind their efforts is very, very similar to ours here at ORIENTED – probably moreso than any other ‘start-up’ out there on the WWW (two founders who work full-time elsewhere and rely on volunteers, ~ the same age, background, etc.).
That premise is to service the needs of a minority group (in our case, the English-speaking community in Taiwan, for them, English-speaking Asian women) that are currently not being met. Financial wealth /business is secondary to the extent that it is not what drives us I mean them. Otherwise we I mean they would have disappeared a long time ago.
I’m sorry but I’m still giggling at your gross presumptions! It’s a shame that so many people would jump to such conclusions and not at least validate their accusations before posting messages like you just did! Come on, give us I mean those guys a break!
Again, I repeat. The answer to your first question is YES! YES YES YES! We I mean they care! Go ask them!
That’s funny. Whenever I’m around Hwa Chiaow, I always feel the same as Christine when she’s around non-AAs. I feel like they’re thinking, “hey, we left you back in the States, why do you have come to here too, go home”.
I get the feeling that some ABCs think they’re finally back to the motherland and would like to forget their experiences and the environment of the States.
Personally, I don’t really care if people ignore me as long as they’re not directly mean, which I’ve had those experiences too.
I went to a CAPT social a few years ago and no one talked to me. Its not like I didn’t try to mingle either(and before you ask, yes, i did take a shower on that day). I didn’t think anyone was especially mean spirited, but I did feel like I was being ignored, which isn’t a very comfortable feeling in itsself. So I thought it must be a group just for ABCs. But does it matter anyhow?
It seems as if every group generally has their own set of biases. What gives with the world?
Christine,
Why don’t I go to CAPT?
I just can’t get past the name of the organization.
I know a lot of my friends go there, and they say, “Hey guy, no need to worry. ‘They’ accpet all kinds of people. It’s not really like the name” …
But the key word is “they.” Who is “they?” “They” is the Chinese. The Chinese are accepting me into the club by their graciousness. Even though I’m not Chinese, well, I can “still” join.
I don’t like the sound of that, no matter how non-racist it is.
You see, good marketers work hard at the taglines, slogans, key selling points and mission statements of their products. In this case, “CAPT” has made it quite clear by the name of the club that this is first and foremost an organization that is designed to benefit Chinese people from America, aka ABCs.
I’d always feel out of place when my racial background didn’t match the founding mission of the organization (whether writtin down or not as such).
So, while I don’t criticize CAPT for existing, I surely resent it when friends criticize me for not having any interest, despite the great networking opportunities.
Maybe this should be moved to a new thread called “Reflections on CAPT.” Ohhhhh, we’re just asking for trouble with that one.
So, I can’t really blame people for calling CAPT the sort of Love Boat hang out. Heck, I know a lot of white dudes that went to CAPT for the same reason!