Miss Asian Power!

Discussion Open Forum
41

Sometimes I feel the same way. In the states I had a lot of ABC friends, but when I came to Taiwan with a big group of students, some of the ABCs turned on me.

I remember I was on a bus coming back from seeing a movie with 3 of my ABC classmates. There was an extra spot next to me on the bus, but the ABC girl didn’t want to sit down next to me. She prefered to sit in between the two seats in the back of the bus (very uncomfortable and bumpy I would imagine). When the other ABCs told her to go sit with me, she said (very loudly), “I’m not sitting next to the whitey!” The whole bus chuckled (everyone seemed to understand her English). She tried to explain that she didn’t like being looked at weird when she was sitting next to a white person. I couldn’t understand her reasoning because if I said the same thing to her in America… Well, you know what…

I’m not saying all ABCs are like her, but there definitly are some that when they get to Taiwan, seem to distance themselves from non-Chinese people.

Just like there are some White folk that don’t like Chinese folk, there are some Chinese folk who don’t like White folk. It’s human I guess, but it doesn’t have to be that way…

Can’t we all just get along???

42

I was a member of CAPT’s Executive Committee (EC) back when Christine was CAPT’s Chairperson. I recall that high on her agenda was renaming the organization to something that better reflected the goals of the EC: proactive, international, inclusive (nice things like that). She had several good ideas for names, too – but we both left the EC before any changes to the name were considered.

Certainly, back then, CAPT’s name was considered a challenge (a burden?) by some of its most active members (not necessarily just Christine, but others on the EC).

When we came to choose a name for THIS website – we faced this challenge again. We tossed around many ideas that we thought would reflect some of the common aspects of our target audience (that’s you guys). And believe me, this was NOT easy.

I’m happy that the name we settled on (and I tip my hat to Chris for coming up with “ORIENTED”) can be interpreted to mean ‘different’ things – like different shades. Also, it’s a name that’s primed for growth (as in, “for the rest of the Orient” )

CAPT was started by very different people many years ago who were primarily… you guessed it: Chinese-Americans in Taiwan. From the looks of it, many of those who attend CAPT events today are happy with the results.

But I hear you about the name thing

43

I agree, Oriented is an excellent name.

44

Give me a few minutes. I’m creating a new thread called “Chinese Americans” and will copy related postings from above, as this discussion seems to be digressing from the original topic at hand.

You guys want to talk about Chinese Americans, YOU GO FOR IT. I got plenty to say myself and if there was ever a place to talk about this (including the Loveboat), it is this ORIENTED website.

UPDATE: Click here to jump to the new thread.

45

I don’t know much about these things, but are Asians a race, like black or white? Asia is a big place with all kinds of different folks. Could not ‘for Asian women by Asian women’ be like ‘for Canadian women by Canadian women’? Why is it that place, nationality, language and race are always confounded?

46

Yes, Asian’s are a ‘race’ like blacks or whites are a ‘race’. That is to say, both are equally invalid.

Like Ben Seale (I think it was him) was saying a while ago, the idea of ‘race’ is scientifically bunk. Last century and well into this, scientists started developing racial catergories and divided the world’s population into races like negroid, mongoloid/asian, amerindian, caucasian, etc etc and various sub-races. This kind of ‘science’ ended up with Nazis measuring noses, to find out if people were Jewish etc.

The concept of ‘race’ lingered on for a long time, but nowadays scientific consensus is that it’s all a load of bollocks. The only scientists who keep these ideas are those who are doing so with ulterior motives. Unfortunately the idea of ‘races’ has been so instilled in the way we all think about the world, that it’s hard to get this idea out of our heads.

Bri

47

This is all quite interesting for me. I am Spanish and in Spain we don’t experience the kind of “multiculturalism” you have in the States. Spanish society is quite similar to Taiwanese in the sense that it is not so “multicultural” or mixed. We look at ourselves as “Spanish people” (we don’t even call ourselves whites!) and see everyone else as “foreigners”. Very simplistic I know, but if you have visited Spain you must have noticed this.

It was only when I left Spain and went to China, UK and Taiwan that I discovered all the different “group denominations” and the sensitivities attached to them. I had a BBC boyfriend for a long time and we got close to marrying each other. We met in Beijing and then spent time in the UK together. I must say that things changed dramatically when he moved back to Asia, he suddenly stopped having “whitey” friends and most of his friends were either bbc’s or abc’s. He didn’t mix much with the local HK people. Some of his friends discriminated me and I was obviously not accepted in the group. Obviously, this resulted in a break-up. Something similar happened with an ABC bf I had in Taipei, he was very nice, but his group of friends had a very strong influence on him. All this was quite an experience for me…

Even when some of you go on about white people I feel somehow confused with the term. I definitely don’t identify with “white americans” or with “white british” etc. God, I had the most amazing culture shock experiences with some americans or back when I was living in the UK! In fact, in some ways Spanish culture is closer to Chinese culture than to some other “white-dominated cultures”

Anyway… from reading some of the postings I see that there are a lot of sensitivities around this issue. I just would like to understand why people like to put labels on everything and tend to exclude each other…

Basically, if I had to, I would not know how to label myself…

Susana, a lactose-intolerant, UK-educated, engaged-to-a-Taiwanese, BBC-heart-broken, straight,(white?) Spaniard… will that do?

48

After I graduated from university in the USA I was living in upstate New York for a summer and met a black girl from Jamaica. She was a very dark skinned black. For some reason she had been raised primarily among whites and treated quite equally. As a result, her whole mindset on the black vs. white racial issue was essentially a RACIST WHITE one. The result was that she did not like most American blacks at all.

It was interesting (and unsettling) to go out with her and listen to her make discouraging remarks against American blacks. She commented that many times a black person would try to make a pass at her in an elevator or something, and I guess the reply she gave him was enough to curl his hair a few more degrees.

I suppose the point I am trying to make is that discrimination can exist in many disguises. What really gets me here in Taiwan is that there is always a lot of media coverage about the accomplishments of Chinese overseas, such as if some Chinese immigrant becomes mayor, councilperson, president of a university, or some other important position. I suspect that foreigners in Taiwan could have equal accomplishments on many levels, but we are severely discriminated against by the government policy that says ROC citizens can be dual nationals, but foreigners who want to get ROC nationality can only have one nationality. What is the basis of that restriction? Clearly there is the concept that Chinese blood is something special, and since we don’t have it, we are not entitled to equal rights and privileges. However you spell it, that is RACISM. Vice President Annette Lu had the recent International Peace Conference in mid-August. Were any representatives of the local “foreign community” invited to attend? No. Elections are coming up at the end of 2001. Do you suppose that any whites, blacks, spanish, italian, canadian, european, or other ethnic groups have any opinions on the “issues” that Taiwan faces at this juncture in history??? Oh, but unfortunately it is not appropriate for us to issue an opinion because we are not citizens here. Yet we cannot become citizens here on the same basis as ROC people who go and become citizens in our countries and then vote in our elections, (i.e. they retain their original citizenship at the same time.)

Listen closely to what the different political parties are saying, and often you will hear a statement like “Oh, let’s stop arguing. At least we should all agree on one thing: we are all Chinese!” To me such a remark clearly shows that the people in power here in the ROC are very psychologically anti-foreign. The concept of “New Taiwanese” needs to have a much broader basis, and that will only happen when we successfully lobby to have the laws amended to allow foreigners to obtain real equity in this society.

49

As for gay presidents;Roosey was a screamer. Just kept it all in the cupboard.

50

I agree that there’s a special new kind of society in the US, England, Canada and Australia, because these countries have the least racially driven policies of any countries in the world. The US started it all when it realized one of the reasons it became the most powerful country in the world was by not being too restrictive about immigration. Unfortunately, like the Spanish woman said above, most of the world’s countries are still mostly all of one common ancestry. I say unfortunately because that’s what causes racism…unfamiliarity. It also causes myths and ignorance. Knowing that other people exist and are pretty much all the same makes you smarter. The longer I live in Taiwan, the longer I see similarities, not differences in people of different backgrounds.

Well, the world’s not anywhere near some idealized Star Trek intermarried lovey dovey one happy human race…that’s why I don’t watch the news, it’s too depressing, because of the stupidity.

And, of course there’s lots of racism in Taiwan, and it exists, but it’s just there, you don’t have to live in it…in the racism. I try to live above it, or next to it, or by it, but not in it.

I’ll talk about that later, by the way.

51

Hey Dummy, the Spanish woman above is Susana, by the way. Anyway, I agree with most of the things you say, but I don’t think racism is mainly caused by ignorance, in countries with one commom ancestry, such as mine. One of the countries where I have seen the biggest signs of racism is in multicultural countries such as the US. Every time I meet an American person I fall into some type of Spanish or Latino stereotype. Most of the American films I watch portrait racial or ethnic stereotypes. So yes, maybe in not mixed countries like mine, we do see foreigners from an ignorant point of view, but I don’t think it necessarily originates racism.

52

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Big Dork:
“ah-toh-ga” “ah-toh-ga” “ah-toh-ga” which is what I hear everyday and it is the Taiwanese word for…

There is usually no hatred in the Taiwanese word. "

Racism is often unrelated to emotion.

AH DOUGHAH is TOTALLY racist and when Taiwanese are saying it whether they know it or not are basically deliniating US vs. YOU!! It is taking a physical feature, in this case the nose, and using it to say “you are not us”. It is the same as dividing people by the color of their skin.

I CAN’T STAND THIS TERM “AH DOUGHA”!!! IT IS RUDE AND UNCOUTH. Taiwanese should be made to feel shame when using it.

“Oh but it is so cute…” is what the Taiwanese say when presented with the facts of racism.

Yes ladies and gentlemen THERE IS racsim in Taiwan.

53

Bu Lai En, i’m glad you brought up the fact that “race” is no longer considered a legitimate classification in the scientific community. I know that “culture” is also being reconsidered. Similar to the problems that scientists had with nailing down the specifications to define a race, they have found that divergences between characteristics within the same group can be greater than between two separate groups–making classifications meaningless. (as Susana’s posts point out)

The problem I have is that once we realize that culture and race are essentially meaningless, then what do we do about words like “multicultural” or “racism.” The way that racism is used in these boards disturbs me. I find it hard to accept that any white western foriegner is the subject of racism in taiwan. To me “racism” implies the misuse of power from one group on another that has been made powerless by that group. Isn’t there another term to describe some of the problems that have been mentioned here? Discrimination? Prejudice? Ignorance?

For instance, when you use the same word to discribe the exclusion from equal protection under the law or not being able to vote [Hartzell] with being called “ah-toh-ga” on the street [poop] or having to pay more money for a special taxi services, the word and it’s meaning somehow become diluted.

54

I agree, name calling or ignorance are not racism. If you dont like Ah-to-gah, how about Dai-bitzu (big nose) or Yuen-yen (round eyes). To me, they’re kind of cute, like shorty or stretch.

But some of the ongoing, nasty, negative complaints about percieved racism directed at foreigners by our hosts, the Taiwanese, does sound racist to me.

Or perhaps you’ve been here too long, or not long enough. If you don’t like the music you don’t have to dance. If you hate it so much, go home.

55

[QUOTE]Originally posted by :
[QB]I agree, name calling or ignorance are not racism. "

Who are you agreeing with?

If you dont like Ah-to-gah,

Ah to Gah and Da Bi Tzu are the same thing.

how about Dai-bitzu (big nose) or Yuen-yen (round eyes).

To me, they’re kind of cute, like shorty or stretch.

Kinda cute like “darkie” “midnight” “flat face” or “Chinaman” right? These are all harmless cute terms that not a few people, to their chagrin, have been called over the years. The fomer president of Berkeley from Taiwan, broke down in tears upon his retirement press conference saying that he had to endear these cute terms all his life while in the States.

But of course the solution is to just go home!!!

What is wrong with being observant and hoping for change to what is RIGHT???

56

I never said that there isn’t racism in the US…of course there is, and there’s racism everywhere…but think about it this way for a minute.

At least in the US people of ALL countries are allowed to become true US citizens, having no basis on where they are from, or what color they are. (ie…NOT CHINESE DESCENT here)…

Now, most countries like Taiwan have very restrictive policies regarding foreigners as to becoming citizens, and their rights as foreign residents are also very restricted…

I think it’s helpful to point out that racism exists in America, and it is, once again, based on ignorance. Many suburban Americans live in an all white teddy bears and Chevrolet land, not having any contact with people of other cultures who live in their midst.

On the contrary, I think there’s rampant racism in the US…I just think the government’s policies toward foreigners looking for residency is so much more liberal than Taiwan.

PS…I don’t care what the woman from Spain’s name is…is that important to this discussion? That you pointed out that I didn’t use her name?

57

So Bu Lai En - race is an outmoded way of describing people - so how do you describe people who (from you own writing) often give doubtable information when you ring a government dept. I would bet that you would not expect it in New Zealand, or in other countries with a strong western influence.

Sure sussana may - in spain - see all “others” as foreigners - but I am sure she has particular names for groups of overseas spanish speakers as well as the other groups of foreigners she might like to group in her mind.

Race as a concept exists. It is attached to appearance and cultural background. As some people here have so ablely pointed out - some have an appearance but come from a different cultural background. Some display a cultural background different from their appearence. Some change - as someone pointed out - when they are geographicly displaced.

So take each person you meet with an open mind - but you would be unaware if you did not look at a person and say to yourself " He looks like XXXX race - “maybe that is what he is trying to say” - based on your experience of races.

Sometimes you will find they are only trying to help, rather than treat you as an idiot.

58

So, like, to just try and return to the original topic. Could " Written by Asian women for Asian women" be interpreted as: Written by women of a general geographic region for women of the same general geographic region? And is this all that bad?

And PooP Too’s disecting of each line of my message reminds me of someone…

Yes, a major cause of racism is ignorance, but that does not mean that all ignorant people, or those who use the term Ahdougah are racist.

But when I read postings with statements written IN CAPITAL LETTERS!!! WITH EXLAMATION POINTS, they look like screaming that THEY HAVE A BIG PROBLEM!!!

Yeah, like I said, “If you don’t like the music you don’t have to dance”. If you’ve got such a BIG PROBLEM!!! then I would suggest that you split.

And no, it is the extreme of arrogance to assume that you could, or even should change what is going on here to what YOU think is RIGHT. You are one in six billion people and what YOU think is RIGHT is the view of a miniscule minority. Attempting to impose your view on what is going on here, far from your home, could be considered racist.

59

SOMEONE IS HAVING A BIG PROBLEM. LOL.

60

[QUOTE]Originally posted by :
[QB]So, like, to just try and return to the original topic. “”

When under switch subjects. You sly dog.

Could " Written by Asian women for Asian women" be interpreted as: Written by women of a general geographic region for women of the same general geographic region? And is this all that bad?

No no, its wonderful. Not bad at all.

And PooP Too’s disecting of each line of my message reminds me of someone…

Really?!?! Have we met? Are you a “ji tong” or just “swan ming de”?

Yes, a major cause of racism is ignorance,

Thankyou for conceding my point.

but that does not mean that all ignorant people, or those who use the term Ahdougah are racist.

Racism is usually unconscious, meaning one does not purposefully conjour up how they are going to commit racsit acts today.

Again racism stems from ignorance. And as we are all ignorant on some level…

But when I read postings with statements written IN CAPITAL LETTERS!!! WITH EXLAMATION POINTS, they look like screaming that THEY HAVE A BIG PROBLEM!!!

I am so sorry. O.K. I admit I have a big problem. My mommy played with my pee pee when I was young. It is all her fault. I promise to go home immediately and seek consuling.

Yeah, like I said, “If you don’t like the music you don’t have to dance”. If you’ve got such a BIG PROBLEM!!! then I would suggest that you split.

Please see above.

And no, it is the extreme of arrogance to assume that you could, or even should change what is going on here to what YOU think is RIGHT.

You know what they say about ass-u-me?? I am sorry, did I reveal what I thought. Must be that ji tong or swan ming ability again.

You are one in six billion people

Last time I checked approx. 21 million people live in Taiwan.

You must be a mainlander. In that case maybe you should just go home. Taiwan does not belong to you.

Attempting to impose your view on what is going on here, far from your home, could be considered racist.

I admit that I am capable of racism. But do I consciously seek to be that inner racist that is screaming to come out? That is the question oh little one.

Highest Regards,

Poop