Yeah, it may be tiresome to be called A-doh-ga, being stared at, etc., but really, what are you going to do?
In my experience, I am most likely to get the ‘foreigner’ treatment in situations where people expect to see foreigners. It might seem odd, but it’s true. I tend get more stares, pointing and comments in places like downtown Taipei or Tienmu. When I am in the country, or when I go to vote in elections in Sanchung, nobody bats an eye. When I was standing guard at the gate of our army base outside of Miaoli, along a fairly large road with a moderate amount of traffic, I never even got a second glance. Instead of yelling “Ah-doh-ga!” the kids passing by would yell “Ah-bing-ge!”
So I guess it may not be the reaction to the person so much as a reaction to the situation. This is just my experience, of course. Results may differ.
Poagao,
If you are a foreigner, how can you “vote in elections in Sanchung”?
quote[quote]Poagao,If you are a foreigner, how can you vote in elections in Sanchung? [/quote]Wolf, check out the man’s website, and you will know. He’s one-of-a-kind… http://www.poagao.org/
My experience has been the same as Poagao’s (btw - LOVE the web page).
I get the most ‘******’ treatment in ****** situations. (Can we say ****** anymore? Don’t wanna get in TROUBLE. I just don’t get it - I’m a ****** - why can’t I say ******? You’re an Asian woman - why can’t you say Asian woman?)
But in more everyday, normal Taiwanese situations, there’s not as much ‘******-ism’. When I go for a walk by myself, parents will sometimes point me out to their kids. (warranting a slap upside the head.) But, when I take my dogs out for a walk, the parents will INVARIABLY point the DOGS out to the kids, totally ignoring the foreigner. So is it that people just notice things that are different and sometimes that’s misinterpretted as racism?
I can say, from experience, dogs are more interesting to Taiwanese people than white people here. Is there some foul, underhanded “dogism” at play here? Of course not. It’s just that there’s something different, something noteworthy, something you don’t see everyday. So it’s commented upon. Whether it’s a white person, or a dog, it’s cause for conversation.
For what it’s worth, I also really appreciated Claire’s point - basically that these are just words and why do people need to jump to conclusions and get so upset about them?
On the other hand, I also appreciated Hartzell’s points - Taiwanese people can be other nationalities, but those of other nations cannot be Taiwanese and isn’t this inherently racist? And, might I respectfully add, wouldn’t this kind of institutionalized racism be more important and warrant more attention than the “I got looked at funny at the supermarket today” kind of racism? I agree with Hartzell - we should be getting together and working constructively on something we can actually do something about. Better that than sitting around here whining, right?
Thoroughly enjoying this thread, especially since it hasn’t degenerated into mindless name-calling and snivelling;
Fresca
Sigh!
So we can’t say “******” anymore. Oh well. Just for the curious ones, ****** means “The sound a car makes - ey”
honky, honky, honky, honky, ******, ******, honky, honky, honky, honky!
and that’s the correct spelling, by the way.
Can you say “puerile?”
Just another little poop!
I don’t think anyone is consciously “racist”, except in extreme cases like KKK or Nazis…
Just like white people in the west needed to be woken up a long time ago, I think Asians need to start being held accountable for their treatment of non-asians living in Asia. Why? Because all of us need to be responsible for our social actions…however harmless you may think name calling etc. is, if it hurts people’s feelings then it is a racist comment, simply because it hurts the people being called Ah to gha’s feelings and should be stopped.
I remember growing up in New Orleans and my great aunt had a black guy come and do her garden every week. When he finished, she would always hand me a dollar bill and say “Go give the niggger a dollar.”(in case of bleeps)…well, I was really insulted every time she used that word, but I didn’t say anything because I was a kid. I did make a personal vow to try and not be racist because there was so much of it when I was growing up.
So, you see, it wasn’t “racist” to call that man that, since it was between me and my aunt, and she didn’t even know it offended me because I was a little kid and I loved her and didn’t want to offend her…
So, if no one says anything about the way Taiwanese people treat us because we’re not Asian, Taiwanese won’t become the international country they seem to want to be…but is that what they really want? You can’t have your cake and pointy nose, too, you know.
In reply to someone:
I realise that although scientifically the concept of racism is dead it lingers on, Someone said they don’t think the term ‘racism’ is appropriate in Taiwan. Well here’s two different definitionsof racism that some people use.
-
Discrimination on the basis of race. How can this exist if race doesn’t exist? So probably ‘discrimination on the basis of something perceived of as race’. Which maybe comes down to 'treating people differently because they look different form you or are from another country or have different customs than you. This definitely happens ion Taiwan in two ways - the freak show “waiguoren waiguoren” thing and the official government discrimination that makes it very difficult for a foreigner to live in Taiwan long-term.
-
Racism is racial discrimination with power. This concept of racism implies that true ‘racism’ only exist when it is used by those with power against those without. It is institutional racism which disempowers a minority group.
Someone said those Taiwanese that stare and point at you aren’t racist they’re just looking at something different than they’re used to. i don;t really know but I did notice the difference between here and home. You’re probably about as likely to encounter a ****** in Taipei as you are to encounter an Asian in many of the cities I visited in New Zealand with my Tawianese girlfriend, but she didn’t get stared at or pointed at once in the month we were there. She certainly didn’t get kid pointing and shouting ‘asian, asian’ or ‘Japanese Japanese’ or something. (You know when kids point at me and shout “meiguoren meiguoren” I just want to shout back at them “ribenren ribenren” but I know they wouldn’t get it).
Bri
Bri, when I was growing up in the U.S., kids would point at me and chant “Chinese, Japanese, dirty knees, look at these!” and then pull their eyes outwards to a slant. I used to get that all the time.
Racist attitudes and remarks happen everywhere.
The difference as I see it is that the U.S. government and in particular, the special interests and minority groups, have made a lot of progress in terms of raising public awareness of cultural differences and equal rights for minorities. Though racist attitudes still exist in the U.S., at least in theory (racial discrimination laws in the workforce, for example), the awareness is there, due in no small part to concerted public pressure for change.
My question is, when will ‘minority’ groups and related interest groups step up and do the same for themselves in Taiwan/Asia? If you leave it up to the government, it’s probably not going to happen.
Christine
I know what your’e on about -this is kids making fun of you because you look different, maybe fostered by the racist attitudes of their parents and the society they live in.
What I’m talking about is a little different - the curiosity or whatever it is of kids - and adults too - staring pointing “ooh a foreigner” or laughing at a foreigner speaking Chinese no matter how good it is. This didn’t happen in New Zealand and I doubt if it happens in the US. You might get some genuinely nasty comments, but do you ever get people in the States staring and pointing at you "ooh an Asian, an Asian’???
Bri
Bri… I think for Asians living in the U.S. up to the mid to late 1960’s, the answer would be no, they wouldn’t say “ooh an Asian, an Asian” but rather, “you damn chinnk”.
Asians, African Americans, and other minority groups have had to fight long and hard to get to where they are today in the U.S., sometimes via responsible mobilization and cultural awareness, other times through violence and public outcry.
As an Asian American today in the U.S., I have to say that people are less likely to be pointing fingers at me and making racist remarks (I say less likely because it still happens on occasion), but that is only through the incredible efforts of those before me who fought against racial discrimination.
In a sense, Caucasians in Asia have it a lot easier than Asians in the U.S. In spite of the racist attitudes (both amongst some of the local people and in government policies with respect to immigration and citizenship rights), ‘Westerners’ enjoy a degree of respect in Asia that Asians never did when they first (“first” being relative from a historical context) began establishing themselves as permament residents in the U.S.
This article may be of particular interest to Richard Hartzell and others who are actively working to change local legistration on behalf of foreigners living and working in Taiwan.
Entitled “Court rules Chinese not eligible for naturalized citizenship (U.S.)”, this article is part of a timeline that tracks the painful emigration of Asians to America from the 1600s to the present.
It will be interesting to see how things evolve for foreigners who wish to establish themselves in Asia. Discussions like these are a step in that direction.
Hey Christine - there have been countless wars since then - you want to bring 150 year old history here???
Sure asians have not been well treated in western countries in the past - Most that I know are trying to lift themselves out of that - despite the HUGE publicity for minority groups who might like to put a different spin on it.
So Taiwanese are taking revenge???
If Taiwanese and others were truly trying to take revenge for past treatment, I think it would be a bit more serious than pointing and laughing. That’s annoying, but it could be a lot worse. As for the argument that they’re just curious about people they’ve never seen before, I repeat that I experience most of that kind of behavior in places foreigners are more likely to frequent. It seems that the more experience people here have had with foreigners, the worse it is, too.
It’s not impossible for non-Chinese people from other countries to become ROC citizens; It’s just that not many people of non-Chinese descent from Western, 1st-world nations are willing to give up their original citizenship to do it.
I think it will be difficult for Western foreigners to gain much public awareness or improvements in the Taiwanese “mass consciousness” for the next 10-20 years.
Taiwan is a closed country and any foreigner that wants to enter this country must be a fairly responsible member of society since the visa term is short and you must make a living to pay the bills. Therefore I think the foreigners here must conform to certain rules and must worry about more practical daily issues. Not too much time left for political activism or wars. Their numbers are smaller and quite frankly they are not being lynched angry mobs every Thursday of the week. Foreigners here must do something really major to gain the same entitlements as minorities in the US or Canada. Some spouses can gradually gain some sense of citizenship and entitlement, but most foreigners maintain “guest” status and arent going to make too much fuss. Relatively few are scratching and biting to gain permanent resident status. Relatively few are banding together and approaching Taiwanese institutions for entitlements and better treatment.
Minorities in Western countries were more or less backed into a corner and fought for recognitions. There was no where else to go. As a big group(s) they made alot of noise. Slowly schools, public institutions, media, etc began to preach and practise tolerance. I like living in urban areas of USA and Canada.
I have been rambling and I have written a whole bunch of generalizations here…ok
MAIN POINT:
Western foreigners will be enduring the finger pointing here for many more years until there is a larger number that move, live and become active in all parts of society. The schools, public institutions, media, govt are not changing their behavior or thinking for the interests of foreigners…yet. Public awareness does not seem to improve much without a whole lot of semi-violent and disturbing fuss.
As good as it is in the US or Canada, I will always end up bumping into some yoho (young & old) who will call me “ch#nk” or tell me to “go home”. While in Taiwan every once in a blue moon I will be told that i am a “halfbreed” or “your Chinese sucks because you arent 100% Chinese”.
It’s here. It’s there. It’s everywhere. However, there are so many good people on both sides, that the rotten apples really dont seem to spoil my days. I tell ya, took alot of days of serious soul searching to discover that last part.
My 2 bits. Have a great day!
CG
HiRian.com (just kidding )
My point was simply to say that educating an entire country to cultures outside of what they have been formally exposed to takes a lot of time and a lot of work.
More specifically - and in using U.S. history as an example - you almost have to a) make a lot of noise and then do it formally (through organizations, letters to gov. agencies/leaders, public protests, publications, other educational efforts, etc.), in order to b) change government policy legislation, which will indirectly if not directly c) raise public awareness.
The timeline that I presented of Asian American emigration to the U.S. was just to show how much work it can take to be treated ‘equally’ as a minority in a foreign country.
As an example, the “Asian Pacific American (APA) Heritage Month” is not just for APAs to come together and celebrate their heritage. It also serves to effectively raise awareness about APAs to non-APAs (whew! giving myself a headache here!).
I.e., to change the way you are perceived as foreigners in Taiwan, imagine the impact if a group of ‘foreigners’ came together and regularly held a community service event in Taipei, inviting locals to come and meet them, talk to them, and get to know them as people. Hand out pamphlets about those Chinese and Taiwanese phrases which are considered insulting, even if insult wasn’t intended, get Dan Bloom and Klaxon to organize a press conference (I’m only half-kidding )… I.e., educate the locals on who you are as people.
That was pretty much the only way things were going to change for Asian Americans, African Americans, and other minorities living in the U.S. I don’t see how ‘foreigners’ in Asia can get around it.
I have to agree with Christine that Caucasians have it relatively easy in Asia. I’d also like to add that in Taiwan, caucasions have it much easier than south-east asians. I’m not sure what Hartzell thinks, but I believe that all the red-tape mafan bullshit that is there in applying for work visas, joint family visa’s, permanent residency, and citizenship was developed to discourage/prevent SE Asians coming to Taiwan, not white westerners.
Hmmm… I should point out that as ‘guests’ or minorities of any country, one’s behavior can have a positive - or negative - impact on how all minorities are perceived, whether we like or not.
I.e., I have to qualify my comment above… “imagine the impact if a group of ‘foreigners’ came together…” with RESPONSIBLE foreigners.
I’ve got to say that this is my fave thread at Oriented, even if I don’t contribute very much. It’s gotta be the great title: Miss Asia Powers Rules!