here’s a game we can play. how many posts can mofan make without offering a single shred of evidence to back up his argument?
it’s a time honored tactic of desperate people. accuse someone of something without the slightest proof that what you accuse them of was even possible! on the whole of the internet with all the sources of news, you cannot find a single link to establish that the weapons even existed at the compound after april 10th, 2003. and yet you are so sure that they were stolen AFTER april 10th, 2003.
[quote=“Flipper”]I have provided 2 links. 1 shows the results of a US search of the facility which did not turn up the weapons. another shows that a search of the facility BEFORE the 101st got there also did not turn up the weapons.
you have offered NO PROOF that the weapons were ever under us watch in the first place.
“no smoking gun”. lol. what about “no evidence to back up your argument”? :bravo:[/quote]
Proof that it was under US watch is the Iraq declaration of weapons.
Had you been commander of one of the best armed forces in the world, and the country you had been planning to invade had given you a list of locations of all the weapons in their country, what will you do first, and what will be put on the back burner?
“How can you correct problems if you do not diagnose the problem in the first place?”
We still don’t know the truth for sure concerning the explosives but (a) the Bush administration has given us plenty of reasons not to trust their versions of the facts in Iraq, and (b) here’s some evidence from today’s NYT supporting the allegation that they disappeared when the US should’ve been guarding them:
Try not to get too excited. MFGR is the poster boy/girl for the demise of liberals having monopolistic control over public policy and media. In the free market of ideas, MFGR looses. Actuallly, they always have lost when liberals act as liberals. They’ve had to dress up as conservatives to win elections. Now that their monopoly is crumbling, there is nothing left they can do except make up stuff. It is an act of desperation. It is an act of panic. You have to take his/her posts as a window into his/her soul. What you see through the window is fear and denial.
It reminds me a bit of Microsoft villifying Linux in the media, as if Linux would harm you and your business. Long-standing monopolies loose the ability to market themselves based on the benefits of themselves. They take power for granted. They loose the ability win the hearts and minds of the people through issues … They have to resort to lies and coersion tactics. They loose the ability to adapt to changing customer (or electorate) shifts.
1995 - charles duelfer(of duelfer report fame), chief american weapons inspector in iraq called on the iaea to destroy stocks of hmx, rdx, and petn explosives in iraq. the iaea refused because it did not consider those explosives a threat and let the iraqis keep them:
funny how 9 years later the iaea is hysterical that these explosives aren’t there anymore.
may 8th, 2003 - 75th exploitation task force(charged with hunting down ANY wmd’s they could find to justify the original rational for the war) searched the complex and found nothing.
but i see why the nytimes didn’t include those 2 dates in their timeline. it would have thrown their “blame bush” theory all out of whack.
btw, you guys notice the kerry campaign is already climbing down? several leading demos have already said on air that the weapons just might have been gone by the time us troops got there. just like christmas in cambodia, this will be another case of loyal foot soldiers like mofan and mt defending the island as the commander slowly retreats behind them. reminds me of some of the loyal liberals who still insist, to this day, that the cbs memos were real.
What monopolistic control do I exert? Good gravy, you aren’t making any sense, man!
Looses what? The dogs of truth to go barking at the Republicans? I posted an article. The challenge to it made a false claim that the troops had “searched” and found nothing. Col. Anderson and the journalist that was with those troops refuted that version. The NY Times has now come up with further information conveniently placed in chronological format.
The electorate is, by and large, somewhere muddling along in the middle of things – raving loony rightwingers have to pretend to be a bit more liberal in order to get elected (hence “compassionate conservativism” and other bullshit that gets dusted off in election years).
Are you talking about the Republicans here? The media marketplace has always had conservative columnists, magazines, etc. Now they have an entire television network that doesn’t even pretend to live up to its “fair and balanced” tagline. Conservative radio show hosts far outnumber more progressive viewpoints. One would think you’re not even aware what a massive media machine Rush Limbaugh has been over the past decade.
What sort of nonsense is this? The pools of watery poo are under the seats of the Republicans, not the Dems.
Ah… now we finally get a glimpse as to what is really bothering you. Hey, it was the Republicans that started getting really soft on antitrust matters and let Microsoft off the hook. You may recall that it was under the Clinton administration that the DOJ and FTC were dogging Bill Gates.
Please show that there is an actual monopoly out there. Do you actually have a point or are you alleging a vast “left wing conspiracy” that has somehow kept conservative viewpoints at bay … despite the enormous evidence to the contrary.
Again with the Republicans?
Thanks for the very interesting economics lesson, but do you have anything relevant to add to this discussion?
[quote]…International Atomic Energy Agency documents obtained by ABC News … indicate the amount of missing explosives may be substantially less than the Iraqis reported…
The information on which the Iraqi Science Ministry based an Oct. 10 memo in which it reported that 377 tons of RDX explosives were missing
The Bushies shouldn’t have been putting any explosives into the hands of the bad guys. One more aspect of the massive incompetence of the Bush administration in this war.
And your continuing to post nonsensical statements regarding this matter contrary to the facts already revealed is just one more aspect of your massive verbal incontinence…
They were ready to go protect the Iraqi Oil Ministry, but they couldn’t be bothered to go sweep up the WMD sites that had been already identified and sealed by the weapons inspectors?
Then, the GOPsters go into wacky lie mode by trying to say that the location had been searched by the 101st Airborne troops – and yet the commander of those Airborne troops and the journalist who was there at the time both shot down that story. No wonder the GOP has no credibility anymore.
If a Republican says it’s sunny outside, you’d better check a window.
Witnesses are now coming forward, and the evidence is accumulating… Perhaps it’s time for Bush to consider stepping down and to start contacting his lawyers.
'BAGHDAD, Iraq, Oct. 27 - Looters stormed the weapons site at Al Qaqaa in the days after American troops swept through the area in early April 2003 on their way to Baghdad, gutting office buildings, carrying off munitions and even dismantling heavy machinery, three Iraqi witnesses and a regional security chief said Wednesday.
'The accounts do not directly address the question of when 380 tons of powerful conventional explosives vanished from the site sometime after early March, the last time international inspectors checked the seals on the bunkers where the material was stored. It is possible that Iraqi forces removed some explosives before the invasion.
'But the accounts make clear that what set off much if not all of the looting was the arrival and swift departure of American troops, who did not secure the site after inducing the Iraqi forces to abandon it.
‘“The looting started after the collapse of the regime,” said Wathiq al-Dulaimi, a regional security chief, who was based nearby in Latifiya. But once it had begun, he said, the booty streamed toward Baghdad.’
[quote=“ABC via Reuters”]WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The amount of conventional explosives missing from an Iraqi storage facility may be substantially less than the 377 tons reported by Iraqi officials, ABC News reported late on Wednesday, citing documents obtained by the network.
The information on which the Iraqi Science Ministry based an Oct. 10 memo on the missing explosives was based on a “declaration” from July 15, 2002. At that time Iraqis said there were 141 tons of the explosives at the facility, ABC reported.
International Atomic Energy Agency documents obtained by ABC show that on Jan. 14, 2003, the agency’s inspectors record that just over three tons of high explosives were at the Al Qaqaa storage facility, ABC reported.
The IAEA documents could mean that 138 tons of explosives were removed from the facility long before the start of the U.S.-led invasion in March 2003. [/quote]
Wow, those numbers just keep going down. 377 tons. 141 tons. 3 tons.
The Bushies didn’t put any explosives into the hands of the bad guys. The bad guys already had them long before the Bush administration invaded Iraq.
You two plus cableguy are like the three stooges of the IP forum. :loco:
'WASHINGTON (CNN) – A missing cache of high explosives probably was looted after the fall of Saddam Hussein because the military failed to secure vulnerable weapon stockpiles, the former chief U.S. weapons inspector in Iraq said Wednesday.
'David Kay, former chief of the Iraq Survey Group, the joint CIA-Pentagon task force charged with locating Saddam’s suspected weapons programs, said the Pentagon had underestimated the capability of Iraqi looters, who he said could dismantle buildings without heavy equipment.
'“I find it hard to believe that a convoy of 40 to 60 trucks left that facility prior to or during the war and we didn’t spot it on satellite or UAV [unmanned aerial vehicle],” said Kay, who also was a U.N. weapons inspector in Iraq during the 1990s.
'“That was because it is the main road to Baghdad from the south. It was a road that was constantly under surveillance. I also don’t find it hard to believe that looters could carry it off in the dead of night or during the day and not use the road network,” Kay said in a CNN interview.
‘Elements of the 3rd Infantry Division were reportedly the first to arrive, on April 3, 2003. The soldiers exchanged fire with Iraqis in the compound and conducted tests on a substance, which turned out to be explosives, before moving on the morning of April 4.’
'WASHINGTON (CNN) – A missing cache of high explosives probably was looted after the fall of Saddam Hussein because the military failed to secure vulnerable weapon stockpiles, the former chief U.S. weapons inspector in Iraq said Wednesday.
'David Kay, former chief of the Iraq Survey Group, the joint CIA-Pentagon task force charged with locating Saddam’s suspected weapons programs, said the Pentagon had underestimated the capability of Iraqi looters, who he said could dismantle buildings without heavy equipment.
'“I find it hard to believe that a convoy of 40 to 60 trucks left that facility prior to or during the war and we didn’t spot it on satellite or UAV [unmanned aerial vehicle],” said Kay, who also was a U.N. weapons inspector in Iraq during the 1990s.
'“That was because it is the main road to Baghdad from the south. It was a road that was constantly under surveillance. I also don’t find it hard to believe that looters could carry it off in the dead of night or during the day and not use the road network,” Kay said in a CNN interview.
‘Elements of the 3rd Infantry Division were reportedly the first to arrive, on April 3, 2003. The soldiers exchanged fire with Iraqis in the compound and conducted tests on a substance, which turned out to be explosives, before moving on the morning of April 4.’[/quote]
But you just said that the Iraqi declaration to the IAEA was good enough for you, and the IAEA stated that on January 14th, 2003, there were only three tons – one pickup-truck full – of explosives left at the site.
Are you perhaps relying on outdated information that has since been discredited? Goodness gracious, perhaps this means YOUR INTELLIGENCE IS FLAWED! Perhaps this means YOU MISLED THE AMERICAN PEOPLE! Perhaps this means YOU LIED!
MaPoSquid – Flippy wanted information regarding the presence of American troops in April, and I’ve come through for him.
Perhaps the GOP wants to attack the credibility of the 3rd Division, start up a group called “3rd Division Vets for the Truth” that will call into question all the medals awarded that entire unit. Perhaps they can come up with a website that can make up a bunch of crap to besmirch that honorable unit, publish a book and arrange for a few Fox News interviews in the last couple of days before the election.
[quote=“mofangongren”]MaPoSquid – Flippy wanted information regarding the presence of American troops in April, and I’ve come through for him.
Perhaps the GOP wants to attack the credibility of the 3rd Division, start up a group called “3rd Division Vets for the Truth” that will call into question all the medals awarded that entire unit. Perhaps they can come up with a website that can make up a bunch of crap to besmirch that honorable unit, publish a book and arrange for a few Fox News interviews in the last couple of days before the election.[/quote]
Well, could you possibly answer my questions instead of his? Like, why did YOU LIE about the explosives? Why is it that YOUR INTELLIGENCE IS FLAWED??
I mean, really, these are the heart of the issue, not whether troops were or were not present somewhere at some given moment LONG after the explosives had already been removed pre-invasion. Are you merely saying that the U.S. should have invaded Iraq sooner? If so, why have you consistently opposed the war? Is this a FLIP-FLOP or are you merely WAFFLING?
MaPoSquid: Me lie about the explosives? All I’ve seen so far is Republiconmen trying to say that the site was searched by the 101st Airborne, when it really wasn’t. Don’t you think your government shouldn’t be trying to lie about what the troops saw or did? They could have asked the commander of that unit or the journalist who was there, but I guess truth doesn’t matter very much to the GOPsters. Why the desperation? You guys about to lose bowel control again?
