[quote=“cake”]
The female poster above asked about prostitution.[/quote]
Wow Cake seriously thanks for an honest and detailed response- it was cool to read and answered a lot of my questions. This subject has been nagging at my mind for literally years now and it’s nice to get a response from someone I don’t know/am not emotionally invested in Helps me listen better, judge less.
[quote]
Well, I and my friends have only ever done it in Thailand (some were married, some were divorced, some were single, some had girlfriends). [/quote]
See, this is a bit rough for me. Were you friends with the wives, the girlfriends, etc? Acquaintances?
I’ve had situations where I know the guy is doing it and felt weird being all nice nice with his wife, meeting her eyes, etc. I’m thinking, she could get a disease. She might try to have a baby with this guy, putting herself in an incredibly vulnerable position, when he’s lying to her- I could never have a baby with a guy I didn’t trust (trust is a spectrum thing, but I’d have to be very very far on the high trust end to spawn with a guy) so part of me wants to save this other woman from putting herself in a bad position.
But I’m not her. I would never date a guy like her husband. Does she even want to know?
So you went with these dudes, some of whom were attached, and didn’t feel bothered about the wives and gfs. If you were friends with woman, and you knew she was sleeping around, and knew her bf/husband in passing, would you feel bothered by that? Would you actively go with her and support her cheating?
And please, I know this sounds judgmental and critical and I’m sorry for that. I just really want to understand and I appreciate your honesty. This has been a real struggle for me in the years I’ve been in Taiwan. I never encountered this sort of thing growing up or during my adult years in America. I never even knew anyone who had cheated (if the significant other didn’t already know).
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I would not consider doing it in the ‘west’ where many are junkies who lay back and clock watch. Almost every friend back in the west asks about it when I see them as they are super curious about it. I have never done it in Taiwan, but I know some who have. I have no real interest trying it in Taiwan.
In Thailand, it is almost like picking a woman up in a bar for a one night stand like back in the west (and is known by many as the GFE - girlfriend experience)
In fact, I would prefer the prostitute option than the ONS in say London. No prostitute I have known has ever said no condom is OK. Many ONS’s didn’t care (I always cover up). The prostitutes were meticulously clean who always shower and insist on punters showering before anything happened, but ONS’s didn’t seem to care much in my experience. (The only time Thai prostitutes don’t cover up is with their Thai boyfriends (who I’d worry about them spreading diseases more than the women))
Which woman would be viewed as worse?[/quote]
I’ve had a lot of thoughts about this as well- I actually think it’s far better to go to a prostitute if you want no-strings-attached sex than it would be to have an ONS with someone who…well, someone that you weren’t sure of their motives. Like, if you have an ONS with someone who actually really wants a serious relationship and then is really hurt when you never call them again, or a girl who, for example, it’s her first time and she attaches a lot of meaning and significance to it but really she’s just another notch on the guy’s belt- I think the better option would be to pay for it, both parties knowing what to expect.
And no judgement to the women who are prostituting as long as they are honest/not trying to mislead anyone. Who knows their reasons for getting in in the first place. So which woman could be viewed as worse? Not the prostitute in my judgement—don’t really think the ONS girl is bad either, unless, of course, she’s misleading or lying.
And yet you say you would never consider marrying a prostitute- but would you consider marrying a girl who’d had ONS’s in London?
And good for you for always covering up
[quote]
Most of the prostitutes were actually ‘freelancers’. That is, they come out a few times a month or more, for some extra money on top of their day job salary.
I tried some of the girls in go go bars a few years ago, but never really liked that set up. Going in for a look is OK. I have seen a fair few western couples in the bars too looking for a hook up.
It seems non of the women working in the western red light districts are forced into it.
They can come and go as they please. Many of them appear to be lazy and prefer it to working say in a factory. But in Thailand the scene is changing with the recent minimum wage and it seems less women are entering the scene, so I have been told.[/quote]
Oh that’s really nice to know they come and go as they please/freelance/keep the money they make. I have no idea bout anything in that scene.
I do think that the whole mini wage increase/fewer women doing it is telling. Seems that if a few dollar increase in wages can keep them out of it they probably never wanted to be doing it in the first place.
[quote]
The ones forced into it, appear to be the ones who work in the Thai brothels. The western scene is tiny compared to that. The estimate is something like 450,000 Thai men a day go with a prostitute in Thailand.
They aren’t viewed as prostitutes either. They have another term for them. Kind of like a woman working for some kind of advantage.[/quote]
Again, thanks for telling me. I seriously didn’t even know there were two different “scenes”
All I know is I walked down what is it, “Walking Street” in Thailand (don’t even ask why I was there, it’s a long long story involving a Vietnamese friend and a need to get to the pier to meet two American ex-mormons who were visibly shaken by the time I got to them hahahaha) and I was fucking horrified and all the German guys were glaring at me.
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I would never knowingly date a hooker. [/quote]
See there it is. YOu’ve participated, yet unwilling to date a fellow participant. What if she’d only sold herself the number of times you had paid for a prostitute. eg, you paid for sex 10 times, she sold herself 10 times to make ends meet- would you date her then? If not, isn’t it a bit of a double standard?
I guess I’m operating under the premise of “If I’m unwilling to accept something in a mate, I better not be guilty of it too.”
For example I don’t want to be with a guy who smokes, and I think that’s fair, because I don’t smoke. If I was a smoker, it’d be a little weird if I demanded a non-smoker, wouldn’t it? I know these two things are not even the least bit the same, just an example to illustrate what I’m trying to get at.
But I clearly look at relationships a lot differently than a lot of people.
[quote]
One in Thailand asked me to marry her (we’d met up a few times and spent a day or two together). She would have been a decent girlfriend under different circumstances, but no… She married some other guy in the UK, who knew what she did and they now have a baby. I sent her a message about two years after I last saw her and she replied telling me about her baby etc. I thought that was messed up - her chatting to me in those circumstances. I cut ties as I felt sorry for the guy and baby.
“You never lose the woman in Thailand, you just lose your place in line”[/quote]
Maybe he also has girls that he messages on the side? I wouldn’t see a problem if it was all above the board and honest. But cool that you wanted to keep yourself out of that situation if it was shady---- again, there’s a degree of “ooh that’s wrong” with this woman you were messaging- you felt bad for the husband. But none of that feeling for the wives of your friends? Is it a male/female thing? Feel bad for the husband if the wife is cheating/messaging, but not feel bad for the wife if the husband is cheating? Why the different feelings?
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But why would any man admit to going with one? It is information that doesn’t need to be shared. There is tons of stuff I would not tell a prospective partner (from the past). I am not going to confession.[/quote]
I think a lot of people feel this way. I’m the weird one. But I really believe in full honesty. For example, I cheated in a past relationship. Before I get serious with any future guys, I feel better if I tell them about that. I know that sounds really weird. Maybe I shouldn’t? I don’t know, I feel better if I do. Just saying, “This is who I am. This is what I’ve done. You still want to be with me? Kick ass, I want to be with you too.”
I want to know I’m really accepted. I want him to know my weaknesses before he makes a commitment.
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All that matters is that moment now or from when we started seeing each other seriously.[/quote]
My feeling is that past behavior is the strongest indicator of future behavior. The things I’ve done in the past say a lot about my values, my approach to life, my beliefs, my way of dealing with things, all of which will influence any future partner I have.
[quote]
The poster seems to think a perfect guy exists out there? [/quote]
=0
I’m in America at the moment and seem to have met a guy who feels very similarly to me about all of these issues–so far-- I mean really, can you know? In those first flushes of attraction, those first few deep conversations, when everything is all starry and bright? No, you can’t really know.
But, I’ve known several guys in Taiwan who haven’t gone to prostitutes (even when single) and several more who are faithful to their wives/gf’s. The kind of guys who seem to view women as people and show concern for the people they put their dicks into.
Do I know for sure that they’re like that? No. They might have some skeletons in the closet.
But that’s the sense I get/what I hear from other people. I want one of THOSE guys. And I think I can provide the same sort of fidelity and honesty to a future partner.
If I just fuck around and have fun and meet people for companionship for the rest of my life, man, it doesn’t matter, I’ll just make sure he gloves up so I don’t get a disease.
But if I’m looking to have a family? Yeah, I want one of the good ones.
[quote]
I suggest a pentecostal church or something similar to find a prospective partner.[/quote]
Ehhhh god, no. I’m not religious and want a fellow atheist/agnostic. But I do believe there are atheists who share my values.
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If one thing living in Asia has taught me, is to never ever admit you did anything untoward to a woman. Women have done that with me. Even when I had the evidence first hand.[/quote]
Yeah— probably smart, but she’ll figure it out soon enough, hanging out with you, and you’ll figure it out hanging out with her. In time, everyone reveals their true characters/attitudes toward the opposite sex.
[quote]
That crap you get in the western media and movies about telling the truth is stupid.
“Honey, I cheated on you”. How does that improve anything? It just makes things worse.[/quote]
See I think the telling the truth thing is awesome, but I totally agree that “Honey, I cheated on you.” Makes everything worse. I know first hand. That shit SUCKS.
So the answer, I’d guess, is just not to cheat in the first place. Which is why I’m scheduling a conversation about polyamory/open relationships with my new flame ASAP. Humans don’t seem to be built for monogamy. It can be done, sure, but it’s hard. Given a choice between an honest, open relationship (in which each partner has other partners) and lying and cheating, I’ll choose the open relationship.
Anyways, Cake, seriously, thanks for responding. I can’t tell you how curious I’ve been and how heavily this topic has weighed on me since I realized some of what was going on around me. I grew up pretty sheltered and Asia was a shock to me. I don’t want to be judgmental. I want to enjoy the people around me for what they can offer and accept the things I don’t agree with because it’s really not my role to agree or disagree with their lifestyle choices.
Anyways the best way for me to accept stuff is to understand it and hearing other people’s thoughts really helps.