Morphed thread:BEST PLACE to teach English to BEST WAY!

It seems this debate is gonna run and run so I’ll wade in again. First of all, let’s get over any perceived or implied ill feeling between those teachers with TESOL qualifications and those without. If we are serious about our profession and have our student’s best interests at heart then A is as good as B in that respect.

Secondly, yes there are a lot of TEFL certificates that don’t stand up to scrutiny - I’m thinking particularly of those intensive one or two week types - so let’s also remove those from the equation.

For sure most teachers learn an awful lot on the job and years of accumulated experience can make for a very competent language teacher. I think what Alien was driving at is that, despite the accumulated knowledge of the actual business of teaching, there is also a vast body of knowledge which you cannot acquire without professional study and that this is important as it, not only underpins the reasoning for what we actually do in the classroom, but also allows us to question it.

Two simple examples that spring to mind are:

1 You’ve taught your learners a particular vocabulary item at least 3 times and yet they still can’t produce it. How can you remedy this unless you know something of the standard tenets involved in ‘learning’ a word?

2 You’ve taken your learners through the whole New Interchange Series and they’ve passed all the end of semester tests yet they still can’t produce basic functional expressions. How can you come to terms with this unless you are aware of the fundamental flaws in the presentation/practice/production methodology this book follows?

I think these cogently show the value of education in the theoretical concepts underlying this and indeed any profession. No, qualifications alone don’t make for a good teacher but they can make a good teacher an awful lot better.

Furthermore, learning and teaching a language is a highly complex, and still not fully understood, process encompassing fields as diverse as psychology to pragmatics all of which a good TESOL degree will encompass. This is perhaps one reason why some teachers become a little hot under the collar when they are subjected to assertions like “Anyone can teach their own language”. To a degree, that will always hold true but if you can’t adequately explain why something is or isn’t so then, to my mind at least, you aren’t a goodteacher; Any native speaker can choose the correct answers in a grammar test but how many can answer the student’s question “But why is that one not suitable?”

In extremis, China’s Cultural Revolution had people ‘learn by doing’ in fields from language teaching to practising medicine with varying degrees of bad to disastrous consequences.

Nevertheless, good EFL teaching is as much a ‘profession’ as practising good medicine is in that they both require a knowledge of the underlying principles and techniques. Finally, I don’t assert this as a vainglorious response but as a heartfelt and theorised belief.

Course I still sound like a patronising git but ther ya go! and apologies to Alien for stepping on her turf!

quote:
Originally posted by Fox: Alien, telling me that shit is rolling over your desk day in day out doesn't in and of itself indicate that you could sit down and design a curriculum from woe to go. I learn't my curriculum design skills from Jack. C. Richards, maybe you've heard of him?

Hi Fox,
Sorry, I mistook you for an old friend/colleague. (Am always trying to suss out the Oriented posters, and am often dead on…but)

Ah, the luminous Jack C.
*inauthentic dialogue.
*one-to-one grammar progression correspondence to a “functional/notional syllabus”.
*quasi-communicative (non real-world) activities.
*language function operating in a vacuum with disregard to social context, setting or participant roles.
*an emphasis on accuracy of form as opposed to appropriacy in interaction.

I don’t suppose I would have found as many flaws in Richard’s materials had I not been exposed to the idea of responsive task evaluation, but I’m not going to beat a dead horse.

I never claimed that people could NOT teach English successfully without linguistic research. Please reread my posts above.

Some of the best teachers I know haven’t a clue what pedagogies they naturally lean towards, nor are they familiar with the idea of reflective teaching practice. They just get in the class and do their best to creatively encourage learner involvement and “seemingly” provoke startling results. This approach, in and of itself, has major implications in meeting the most fundamental condition of second language learning. Motivation.

I only meant to say that the insight that comes from critical evaluation of theory is invaluable once you’ve claimed the field of TESOL as your career. It adds a new dimension to the practice. For example, one may or may not continue to swallow popular ideologies of [i.e>the much toted Krashen and his Natural approach] because we start to empirically evaluate theories according to the claims they make, rather than just the sense they make intuitively.
We learn to express ourselves by using lexis of the trade, and above all, we tend to cross-evaluate models, methodologies, tasks, and assumptions. In short, we are no longer spoon-fed theory. We dip the spoons ourselves, which also leaves US open to the same criticism as old Jack C!!!
But having said that, we learn to accept, revise, and re-evaluate accordingly.
Look at how many times Krashen has eaten his words, but at the same time, stimulated a huge amount of debate in SLA and almost single-handedly changed the whole perspective on language acquisition and appropriate methodologies since the 80s.

Finally, if Jack C. weren’t a linguist himself, then what would you use to base your curriculum design upon? By doing this, you’re advocating that Richard’s well-researched theories outweigh yours, and that you completely validate his claims, perspectives, preferences and expectations, NOT those or yours and your own learners’. So, in this regard, a PHD does come in handy, then. It did for Jack, and with one ball, you.
I won’t kowtow to a single (socio/psycho)linguist. Not Halliday, Chomsky, Krashen, Nunan, Widdowson, McCarthy, Hymes, etc. I’ll trash them all equally! Well, I do have a penchant for Tannen, van Lier and Pennycook…all for completely different definitions.

In the same regard, I approach my job as a materials consultant with scrutiny, an eye for detail, and using a criteria for larger implications such as educational validity, accessibility, appropriacy and authenticity.
Only one text for young learners published by Macmillan-Heineman, has crossed my desk which has truly impressed me.
Unfortunately, most of the ones I’ve had to review for local publishing have been rather disappointing thus far, yet many of the authors are quite devoted to improving their texts and accept and welcome, reviewers’ assessments when revising. Afterall, as I say, it’s their names on the covers!

Enough said, this thread has gone well off topic of ‘Best place to teach’.
Peter, it appears there is no answer to this question and it’s going to depend a lot on the kind of atmosphere you would feel the most comfortable in. However, there does seem to be [finally!]a stimulating debate going that classifies teaching success according to various backgrounds and experience. This also reflects personal philosophies, the same as it would in any profession of values.

quote:
Originally posted by Fox: As for which kind of graduate I am refering to, that would be the PHd's and Master's graduates. Put them infront of a classroom full of kids and most of them will fold like paper. Some will be able to struggle through an adult class, but that's about it. Without experience their qualifications have only latent value, and that's if they don't get scared off in their first year on the job.

OK, OK, enough already. Seems like people without degrees are getting defensive and going against those who have them.

It’s true enough that experience is useful to make one more comfortable in the classroom, but first, any real graduate program SHOULD feature teaching experience, and second, which would you prefer: a person with an MA or Ph.D. in the field, but no experience, or a person with no credential in the field, and no experience? At least the person with some education has something to fall back on. People with experience as teachers, if they possess a sense of pride in their work and the intellectual curiosity to wonder if there is a better way to do what they’re doing, will normally either do more reading on their own, join professional associations, or go back for a graduate degree later on.

It’s unfortunate that a few people who are doing MAs or Ph.D.s seem to turn off those who are not, usually by spouting theory and using long words. At the end of the day, it’s going to come down to who has done their homework – maybe even on their own!-- and who really cares about their students. Since teaching involves the most volatile kind of variable – human beings – naturally there are going to be all sorts of exceptions to all the rules, and some people will get on better with one teacher or another one depending on the personal quirks on both sides.

It must be said, however, that after you have done a MA or Ph.D. in Education, you will often find yourself shaking your head in amazement at some of what passes for “curriculum” in Taiwan. That might be the cause of these degreed types “getting scared off during their first year on the job.”

But then again, graduate-level TESOL and related courses assume a couple of things about teaching language: that the learners basically want to learn and/or be in the class, and that the goal of the course is for the learners to acquire the language. Both of these premises are sadly often not the case in Taiwan, either for bureaucratic or business reasons.

Terry (who has a Ph.D. in Education but refuses to discuss theory)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Alien:

For example, one may or may not continue to swallow popular ideologies of [i.e>the much toted Krashen and his Natural approach] because we start to empirically evaluate theories according to the claims they make, rather than just the sense they make intuitively.

Well, I go with Krashen because his theory seems to back up the results I get with my students, NOT because I use his theory to teach my students. And I have statistically significant numbers to back up what we’re doing (my own and others).

Let’s not forget that where you do your degree determines what theories you swallow and which make you burp. After you get out of school, hopefully you’ll gain more balance for being at more of a distance from the whole academe-for-the-sake-of-academe scene and think about evaluating theories based on pragmatic results in the real world, not mid-air fluff. And also, maybe, post without using the word “lexis”, which for most people is the brand name for a car.

I won’t kowtow to a single (socio/psycho)linguist. Not Halliday, Chomsky, Krashen, Nunan, Widdowson, McCarthy, Hymes, etc. I’ll trash them all equally! Well, I do have a penchant for Tannen, van Lier and Pennycook…all for completely different definitions.

Well, that tells me that you’ve never met Tannen, she’s a nutcase if I ever I saw one. Hey, I was an innocent undergrad. What could I do?

Terry @ that woman used to assign readings page by page! Arrrrgh!

Terry, you make some stimulating points, especially for someone who refuses to talk about theory!

I totally agree that we are all in a sense hindered by being educated only in the theories currently holding sway in our particular learning environments. We owe it to ourselves to read around and see what others are or have said. I learned nothing of Chomsky on my course.

Graduate programs assuming the learners want to learn the language would be in the minority though I would hope given the amount of attention paid these days to the values of learner centredness and autonomy. I’m freely regurgitating van Lier here and as guilty as hell of point 1! Still, you don’t need a TESOL Masters to be able to figure out that many EFL students don’t want to be there. Still, having one might help you deal with the issue.

You’re right also that course goals are often very far from the ideal of having students master the language. Bums on seats by whatever method seems to drive a lot of cram schools here as does romancing the HR department in the corporate EFL world. I’ve heard many a business English teacher describe themselves as a salesperson.

Sure this thread has gone completely off the topic but this one is far more interesting. One previous poster asked how ‘unqualified’ (should I say nontheorised!) teachers could improve in Taiwan and how those with higher qualifications could contribute. Well it seems that this forum could be a meeting point if there is enough genuine interest and we only do our mud slinging with big words like the professionals do!

And I also share your distaste of the word ‘lexis’ which is just as amorphous and, frankly, silly as say ‘adverb’.

Please don’t get me wrong as to the value of having a Master’s or PHd.

My responce is to what I feel was a very unfair post to Peter by Abracadabra and ran with by Alien. My attitude is you can have a very successful career in language teaching if you apply yourself on the job which is the route I took pretty much before TESOL Master’s degrees were widely available. If I had my time over I would most definitely consider doing a degree in TESOL, as it has been a very rewarding career; I feel equally as rewarding as I could have hoped from medicine or economics.

Anyway, Terry, thanks for your nice patronizing comments about us being put off by people spouting theory and long words- We’ll let you know when it’s all getting a little to difficult for us. SORRY, I do appreciate your even handedness though.

Alien, sorry, if you had taught New Interchange for 5 years and hadn’t picked up on these problems without a degree then what can I say. And don’t think that Jack Richards isn’t aware of these issues- like they just came down in the last shower- he’s been dealing with them all his adult working life. Where’s your body of great works?

Sure you scored a job in publishing- good for you! That still doesn’t make you a publisher, not yet. A little humility might help out, because there are those authors out there who DO know what they are doing. They might just roll their eyes at too much pretention. That said in this world a little is always helpful for the business side of things.

BTW, I recall a casual conversation with your boss a couple of years back when she told me that quality was not your company’s most pressing goal, because the market didn’t have an appreciation for it. She’s right in a sense, I suppose, but good luck sifting the wheat from the chaff on your desk.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fox:
[QB]Anyway, Terry, thanks for your nice patronizing comments about us being put off by people spouting theory and long words- We’ll let you know when it’s all getting a little to difficult for us. SORRY, I do appreciate your even handedness though.

I guess you’re sarcasm-impaired…and anyway I don’t recall using your name or making anything a personal defense of your tender sensibilities. The fact is that I personally dislike posts populated with words like ‘lexis’ and other lengthy words for which there exist perfectly good, normal equivalents. I mean, we’re supposed to be English teachers–skilled at expressing complex ideas in simple language so that our learners can follow, right?

I really believe that pomposity (pompousness? anyway the quality of being really long-winded and using all the buzzwords) is a big enemy of dialogue between those who have primarily practical experience and those who are more focused on theory. And although I’ve been known to use a couple of adverbs from time to time, that kind of talk really annoys me. It’s one of the primary reasons why, even with a Ph.D., I have chosen NOT to stay in academe. (That, and mandatory syphilis tests only for professors with foreign passports…but I digress.)

At any rate, I think you probably bring something extra to English teaching if you know about something other than just educational theory. After all, the students are not usually learning English in order to teach it themselves…they’re learning it to use it in some way in the real world. So, having a teacher who has experience in economics, or learning another foreign language (such as Japanese) or another area would only be a plus IMHO. I think I got on better with my high schoolers when I taught Spanish in the States because they could see that I had actually used Spanish for something in life and even earned money with it; that was something they could relate to as a reason to maybe do their homework now and then.

Education is fine, but it’s good to consider the content. In the States, for example, everyone is demanding that high school teachers take more “continuing education”, but the counties accept courses like “restaurant tour of New York City” because it focuses on “multiculturalism”. Sorry guys, this is crap. Pleasant and fun crap, but educationally speaking, pretty much without any lasting nutritional value. (I’m not making this up, by the way: check out the Prince William County, VA staff development offerings. And that’s a fairly major school district, too.)

Terry

You’re right Terry. It’s just that these goddamned threads bring it out in me. Sarcasm impaired, I think you might be right. I never thought of it that way.

I just wish I had better things to do.

Peter Schwartz: Can anyone recommend a bushiban to teach at in Taipei?

Hexuan: This is a question that never seems to get answered.

Hexuan: You see Peter this is what you have to put up with when you ask a question like this. A straightforward and unprovoked insult right of the bat. As you’ll know from your last stay in Taiwan there are unfortunately many people teaching English who are very impressed with their own abilities, but yet are not quite secure enough in themselves to pass up any opportunity to slag off others who may be contemplating teaching English in Taiwan. Now there are arrogant self-righteous types in every walk of life, but can you imagine a “professional” in other industries responding like that ? No, that’s about as patronising a response as I’ve heard to a simple enquiry, and tells you more about the author that the “profession”.

quote:
Originally posted by ironlady: Well, that tells me that you've never met Tannen, she's a nutcase if I ever I saw one. Hey, I was an innocent undergrad. What could I do?

Hahaha! I like her writings, Terry. So if she’s a crap teacher, then this says a lot for the debate that too much theory can get in the way of classroom practice! But Tannen as a conversational linguist, is well outside the realm of TESOL anyway. I mean, doesn’t she pop up on Oprah discussing Dubya’s non-sequitors these days?

quote[quote] In extremis,... [/quote] -- Abracadabra

Yowza! I didn’t realize you were a cone-head.
I should be sorryasizing to youis for speechifying regarding the linguis Englis!

quote:
Originally posted by Abracadabra: And I also share your distaste of the word 'lexis' which is just as amorphous and, frankly, silly as say 'adverb'.

Lexis schmexis, it’s a shorter, not longer, word than ‘vocabulary’ and incorporates a whole lot more. So, you’re right, then. An ‘adverb’ is the dustbin of content words, and lexis is the dustbin of all words/chunks/idioms/phrases/collocations, etc!

Perhaps you hate lex because it rhymes with sex?

Please Alien!
S*x is such a crass word for lexiconographers such as we. I mucho prefer copulation, or fornication…but certainly not poking!

“Abracadabra, presto-chango! I have transmogrified this simple word into a big, multi-syllable one! Whoopee! I am a highly educated being! Stand back! I am going to use another word I looked up in the thesaurus!”

%^&^%$: Who wrote the book of love?
^&*&#@: Some goddamn liar!

Wolf

Wanna reply ta ya but dunno wat the fuck ya’s talkin about

Abra,
OK, maybe you have a huge vocabulary, but it sounds forced to me.

quote[quote]In extremis, China's Cultural Revolution had people 'learn by doing' .... [/quote]

In extremis? Is this Latin? It isn’t English. Am I supposed to be impressed?

quote[quote] I think these cogently show the value of education .... [/quote]

How then could “un-cogently” not show this? Tossing in “cogently” adds nothing. I would edit it out. It’s a true fact, eh?

And on a different subject:

quote[quote]... but if you can't adequately explain why something is or isn't so then, to my mind at least, you aren't a good teacher;... [/quote] I see where you are going, but I hardly think you stop and explain grammar constructions and the reasons behind the verb "do" to a class of eight-year-olds. I don't know how to build or repair a watch, but I can tell time, and teach others as well.

How much am I playing the devil’s advocate here? Or is that the devil’s solicitor…devil’s proponent…devil’s anvil.
Where did I put my medication?

quote:
Originally posted by wolf_reinhold: Abra, OK, maybe you have a huge vocabulary, but it sounds forced to me.

Yeah Wolf and maybe you’re smart but you sound like you’re probably a moron to me.

What’s the deal? If someone uses a word that you are (I’m assuming) unfamiliar with does that automatically mean they are trying to impress you. And you also find that offensive? And I’m out to impress people on this BBS? Hah!

Personally, if someone uses a word I’m unfamiliar with I’m happy to look it up and doubly so if I find it useful. Isn’t that how we learn new words or do you know enough already?

It seems to say something of your own insecurities and arrogance that you find the experience unacceptable.

I used the word cogently because I think the examples are convincing. I could equally have said convincing but I happen to like the former (I’m sorry I mean first one). In extremis is a bit out dated I guess but I love the language and will play with it as I see fit. I’m certainly not about to edit out a vocabulary item from my post because the Wolf - 600 post - Reinhold doesn’t like it.

Within this thread there’s plenty of curses and offensive insults aimed at me as is the right of the contributor (should I say writer - Wolf?) but I wouldn’t dream of suggesting the author edit them to suit my sensibilities.

Hah! An analogy (drawing a similarity - Wolf) between language teaching and watch making.

I guess you want to contribute something meaningful to this debate now Wolf so perhaps you’d like to elaborate (Oh God I almost said expound!) on the similarities in watch making and language teaching. We wait with baited breath.

Oh wait you are a moron.

1984

quote:
Originally posted by Abracadabra: Well it seems that this forum could be a meeting point if there is enough genuine interest and we only do our mud slinging with big words like the professionals do!.

Sounds great. I hope we can minimize the mud slinging, an unfortunate reality in all sectors. It detracts from the topic. And “big words” often only serve the purpose of defining an “in group” and “out group.” This has been interesting. Keep it coming!

Wolf - just how bored were you to take a guy to task for his word choice? Any thoughts on the content of his post?

quote:
Originally posted by Abracadabra:

We wait with baited breath.

Oh wait you are a moron.


That would be “bated”. Unless, of course, your breath is bad enough to kill fish in some peculiar way, thus doing away with the indignity of stringing night crawlers on hooks.

I point this out only because you have displayed the poor taste of calling somebody a moron. Yeah, it’s not my forum but it’s kinda like using profanity in your second language – make darn sure you have the tones right before you start slinging it. I have had my share of disagreements with Wolf, but this time I think he’s got a point.

Terry

And on the constructive side – perhaps a thread each for major theories, or major approaches to language instruction? Or those who wish could ‘bone up’ on one particular theorist or area each week/month and then we could all comment on a thread about that one?

Or maybe somebody needs to start up a separate web site, something like “TESOL Theory Discussion” or something like that, with a bbs system. Don’t know how much ORIENTED can swallow.

Terry

quote:
Originally posted by ironlady: I guess you're sarcasm-impaired

I think you might be too Terry.

My comments were a rhetorical, and admittedly rather teasing,response to Wolf’s attack on my intellect and his assumption that I’m trying to show off.

Perhaps you object to my using a base word in place of a more contrived or PC utterance such as intelligence-impaired. Bad taste, perhaps, which is itself highly subjective.

Thanks for correcting my spelling mistakes and with regard to the earlier comment about your being patronizing, I happen to think Fox has got a point.

Enough! It was me (please nobody say “I”!) who suggested we get away from the mud slinging and clearly I’m showing a hypocritical tendencies.

Yes, a more theorized discussion on specific topics would be welcome here but, as you say, it