@ kaikai… I resent your remark. I could offer some choice words for you. Instead I’ll just say that your comment totally misses the mark. First of all, you know nothing about my budget, so you have zero grounds for saying that 10k is “nothing”. Furthermore, I’ve merely pointed out my personal experience of culture shock—actually the first pointed one I can remember in 8 years of living abroad. Is it so bad that I vent my feelings on a forum designed specifically for that purpose? Isn’t that what Forumosa is all about? Where I come from and the way I was raised family takes care of family and to ask for money in the situation I’m talking about seems totally strange. That doesn’t mean I can’t accept different ways of doing things or that I’m a cheap-o. But hey, if it makes you feel better about yourself more power to ya.
great attitude!
[quote=“tastybrain”]Hello all. My wife is Taiwanese, we’ve been married for 4.5 years the past two of which we’ve been living with her parents in 3-story house they built recently. We live on the third floor, where they mostly leave me to my own devices but are cordial and polite as they have always been. They make few requests of me though they do tend to nag my wife at times for things you would expect parents to nag their children about. For the most part, things are pretty good. I have remarked many times to my friends that my in-laws are pretty good, especially considering the crazy I hear other foreigners relate about their in-laws. That is until now.
My wife told me this evening that her mother “has a friend whose daughter gives her 20,000-30,000NT a month for the time she spends watching her grandson (she owns three cell phone shops). Isn’t that sweet?” yeah, well mom’s so generous she doesn’t expect more than 10,000 a month from us after our baby is born! Apparently she’s been asking the question to my wife repeatedly at intervals. This would be her first grandchild. I would have thought she would be excited to spend time with her soon-to-be-born grandson, not try a form a filial guilt extortion.
Mind you we give them 15,000NT every month already. 5,000 is for rent for living in their house (even though we are family), 5,000 is for utilities ( which is a very liberal amount for our usual bills), and 5,000 “respect” money to help them get by since both my father-in-law and mother-in-law have recently or semi-retired. I am simplifying the situation but I think you can get most of the idea. I am happy to help out, but I feel as though we’re putting in more than really needs to be put it.
Now I do have steady income. It is nothing to shout about (approx. 60,000NT/month) and my wife is working for now, but that will soon be changing running up to the delivery and certainly after it for a while. We will need to buy a car soon too which will stretch our budget especially given the price of baby gear these days. I don’t mind paying for a babysitting service. What really buggers my comfort zone is the expectation that payment is due for watching the baby. If my wife and I are both at work, grandmom and grandad are the perfect choice to hold the fort, right? I wonder if they gave their parents a grandparenting stipend for time spent with their grandchildren? Would we appreciate their help? Of course! Would we be happy to treat them to dinner and movies and what not? Of course. Would we cheerfully share the experience of the boy growing up with his Taiwanese family with them? OF course! Do they deserve money for doing something grandparents around the yarn-ball of the world’s history have done for millenium without cash incentive?
It comes off to me as being rather cold. Don’t they want to spend time with their first grandson? Wouldn’t the joy and beauty of that experience be enough payment anyone should expect? Is it cheap to draw the line and say, “No, paying a fee grandmom demands for watching the offspring of her own progeny is too much.” Is that cheap?” We’re not planning on leaving our newborn son at home and rolling off to vacation in the Caribbean or anything. We’re two responsible once-young adults. We do hope that mom can step in and give some advice when needed, maybe take a few feeding shifts if needed while we get our parenting feet under us. We still plan on being the primary care givers. If we need a break, we would certainly hope that she could give us a night or two off. Is that so much to ask that she requires a monetary compensation?
Should Taiwanese grandparents have a right to be paid for watching their grandkids? Personally I find it rather offensive considering the amount of money we pay into the family already for her to expect payment.
[color=#BF0000]What do you all think? Do I sound like a hum-buggered cheapo? Is this something I should give in to? I really have no intention to, but I would like to get some outside perspectives/annectdotal advice/ or reactions from some out there.[/color] Thanks!
Most importantly is how to handle the situation without causing big problems, letting anyone lose face, and/or cause avoidable tension and strife.
Thanks a lot, all! I really want some response from this. Do my poll real quick. Check any and all that you think would be appropriate:[/quote]
weren’t you looking for different opinions? i gave you mine and then you resent it?
Wow! Congratulations! 
Hope you have a happy, healthy baby that brings you all lots of joy.
I come from the free-range school of child rearing, but I realize that babies still need someone around to feed them and keep them out of crappy nappies. My out-laws are really good at that, and they got mad skillz at xi fan cookin’. My girls were also the first grandchildren for Ama and Agung who had both recently retired (still had a lot of energy) and wanted to take care of our sweet patooties. We paid. And we still pay, (albeit less $ now) at ages 7 and 10. We’ve needed someone to watch the kids as my wife and I both work full time. This may amount to 40-50 hours a week of needed kid herding, but it also means that the wife and/or I can still go out to KTV, a pub, a movie . . ., and Gramps and Granny are usually happy to hold down the farm. They love the kids; a hired hand may not.
So, maybe the first thing to do is ask your wife if she wants to “get back” to work.* If she does, go with the relatives. Her income can pay for the (cheap) rent, utilities and childcare (and then some?). Your money can be spent on booze and strippers (I JOKE!) 
You can’t afford booze AND strippers!
I’m looking at the 5000 rent and 5000 utilities as fair market value for rent+utilities. I look at 5000 “respect money” + 10,000 childcare as good value for childcare. You’re not being ripped off, and you may find that Ama is buying ALL of your precious pearl’s clothes, and toys.
Don’t spend a lot on baby clothes if you’re tight for money. Get your wife and in-laws to ask around if anyone (who’s had a baby) has clothes you could borrow. Little kids grow out of clothes so fast; a baby might only wear a cute outfit a couple of times before it’s too small. You can also save money on your own wardrobe and personal hygeine. You’ve got a wife already, so, who ya tryin’ to impress? :neutral:
Anyway the important thing here is you’re going to have a baby. I’m sure things will work out fine. We have gotten fantastic value from this arrangement; I’ll bet you will, too.
- The writer understands that SAHMs are workers, too. All hate mail should be address to Big John c/o Sandman.
The Grandmother is under the impression that she’ll basically be watching the baby 24/7, that the two of you will come home and play with it for 5minutes a day, and then run along to the third floor. This is SOP for many Taiwanese families.
Of course she’s expecting something for this. You live in their house, eat their food, and take full advantage of the extended Taiwanese family umbrella.
My daughter is 16…I’ve never had a maid, ay ee or any extended help. I’ve also never had a babysitter, or required the grandparents to assist in any way. I still had to pay (a lot more than you do) of course, and still do.
My advice is that you move out, grow a set, and raise your own family. Then inlaws should be guests in your home when you invite them, and vice versa.
Good luck, and congratulations on the upcoming birth of your child. Hope it all works out.
It’s very difficult to attach a price to family value. But then I would consider concrete things as an indication:
- Do my wife and I have free reign of the house and amenities over and above our own room?
- Do the payment for utilities include A/C, TV, phone and ADSL, water, electricity, gas, household taxes?
- A) Do we eat most meals with the family, and B) if so who does the groceries shopping, and what is a reasonable
monthly budget for food? - Do we buy our own household cleaning products—washing detergent, floor cleaner, towels, mops, brooms etc—
or do we use what is there?
I would also take into account our contribution to the smooth running of the household:
5. Do we help to clean the house or only our room?
6. Do we cook at times, wash dishes?
7. Do we do washing / ironing?
8. Do we spend time with our in-laws apart from perfunctory greetings?
If I answer YES to 1-3a, NO to 4-8, I’d consider myself pretty well-off.
If I answer YES to 1-8, I’d still consider myself well-off because while I have some financial freedom, I’m also doing the right thing by contributing to the well-being of our family with these chores.
And at NT15 000 a month, that’s a steal for most people. (My rent alone is NT13 000, sigh… but then my MIL lives overseas!)
If you are a buxiban teacher, Tastybrain, you’re most probably working on average 4-6 hours daily, which should give you enough time to spend with the wee one at first, and the freedom to work more hours later to build your nest egg. If your wife is working, she’s most probably working a full day. (Since you ‘re not specific, I err on the side of generalization.) If you value your free time (alone and with your wife), I suspect that you’d be willing to cough up for that. And NT10 000 in that scenario is really not that much, almost “nothing”compared to moving out, paying your own rent, utilities, groceries, hiring a cleaner, and a nanny. At about NT25 000 (that is if you appreciate your somewhat tactless MIL, and trust her to actually take care of the pinkfoot instead of plopping it in front of the TV while she yaks with her cronies) per month, you have it SWELL. Anybody who can “bank” at least 35+% of their pay, is living SWELL.
IMHO, I think you have a sweet deal. (This comment is based on the information you’ve given us; which at the time of going to press was the only information )
Oh, and if you get all huffy and puffy with me for my well-meant post, I’ll slug you silly! 
So, having continued to discuss our plans with my wife we think we will probably move out a few months after the baby is born depending on our finances. Whether or not (and how much) we offer mom (in) cash will depend on if we actually do hire help, if my wife goes back to work and whether or not I/we can manage to make more moolah. My wife and her mother have also talked more about the situation and things seem good after some of the miscommunications and misunderstandings have been untangled. It seems mom was not aware of the tightness in our budget. At any rate, we’re all talking and working it out.
What this has served to teach me is that things are about to change drastically and that the cultural differences are probably going to cause friction in the future. A friend of mine who has had children here offered some really good insight. He said that pretty much everything about child-rearing here is the opposite of what is done in your average Western family. Everything from how much the baby should be held to when it is okay to bring it outside to what the baby wears and how and what you feed it. While I think my in-laws are not control freaks, I do think that they will have their own ways of doing things that will rub my sensibilities the wrong way; it would also be inappropriate to deign to coach my MiL on how I want my son fed/clothed/disciplined etc if she is stepping in a lot–she will have her way of doing things and it would be crazy for me to expect her to change. I’d definitely rather avoid that. The good thing is that we have already started looking at places and mom and dad think it’s a good idea as an investment anyway which, of course, it is.
I remember when my wife suggested we move in with her parents. I didn’t want to do it. We have all heard the horror stories. Turns out none of them came true. Sure, there are things that annoy me, but compared to living with MY parents it’s nothing. So, I count myself blessed to have reasonable in-laws. All the same, I plan on raising my family our way, not their way, so we’ll be moving out eventually.
[color=#FF0000]If you wish to disscuss étiquette or proper attitude on the forum continue the discussion in the temp forum. Stay respectful of each other, follow the rules of posting, stay on topic. Thank you.
Igor- Parenting Moderator [/color]
When I first came to Taiwan 11 years ago and got married, we were living above the in-laws. They owned the 7th (top floor) and built an apartment on the roof. We paid NT$15,000 for that. My wife was also giving her mum NT$10,000 a month “Spending Money”
When our little boy arrived, my wife told me that we now need to pay her mum NT$20,000 a month to look after our boy. I thought, “WOW”, that was pretty steep. Many Taiwanese co-workers told me that this was NOT normal and some who had children didn’t pay their parents or in-laws to look after their kids, though they did pay all expenses, of-course.
So we were paying out NT$45,000 a month to the in-laws. I used to get called ungrateful and rude if I questioned this amount so I insisted that we also then send NT$10,000 home for my mum for “Spending Money.” Again I got abused for this saying that it is her custom, not mine, but I said fair is fair. But then she realised that we were very tight on cash each month and she said she would stop giving her mom the spending money if I stopped giving my mum the spending money. Ha, my mom sent me an email after the second month saying that I am transferring money into her account by mistake and that she had already transferred it into my account.
With the apartment, it was not too bad but once the baby was born, her family slowly migrated into our place as well as the friends and the smoking and drinking and mahjong and soon I was paying NT$15,000 for an apartment where the only sanctuary I had was in my bedroom or in the bathroom.
Her parents were also very controlling with the baby and a few times I called them out saying that this was my baby and I am the father and I will say what goes for him. Sometimes I would come home and he would be up in their apartment and I would go up to get him and they would be reluctant to give him to me, sometimes saying simple things like he needs feeding or changing or a bath, but I would just demand them give him to me and I would do all that, after all he was my baby and I wanted to take care of him. My wife was quite happy to let them do all that stuff. But I couldn’t wait to get home from work to be with my boy, even if it meant I had to do all the nasty jobs with him. He was my baby, afterall.
Anyway, I split up with the wife when my boy was nearly one year old and I moved out of the in-laws and I took my boy with me. I found a babysitter not 100 metres from my new apartment which only cost me NT$10,000 a month which was from 8am - 7pm, sometimes a little later if I had to stay back at work. She feed, bathed and changed him and all that kind of stuff, and I paid for the daipers, clothes and stuff of-course. She also took him in when his vaccinations were due and all stuff like that, that I couldn’t do with out help. He actually became well known in our area as the babysitter’s brother had a small temple and they used to go there during the day, even now, people who I have no idea who they are stop us and will say hello to my boy sayingthey remember him as a baby in the temple.
My apartment was also a lot better than the in-laws, a newer two bedroom apartment that only cost NT$11,000 a month, and has a great big courtyard and play area for kids to play and ride bikes around and stuff like that.
So after moving out I managed to save NT$14,000 a month on rent and babysitting, and felt I was in a much more comfortable environment.
My ex moved to Australia to study but she asked if I could take my boy to her parents once a month to visit, but as I was pretty pissed with their attitude I said that they were free to come visit him at our place anytime and she said no that is not how it is done, the younger people must go to the older people. But I still just said that they are welcome anytime and my boy is now 9 years old and they have never come once though we only live 10km away… oh, and no birthday cards or Chinese New Year Red Envelopes or any contact…
Now my boy is in Grade 3 and I have a different babysitter where he goes twice a week for a few hours each time and I pay NT$5000 a month, the other nights I can go pick him up from AnChinBan straight after work, So I still get to come home and look after my boy.
[quote=“TaipeiSean”]
My ex moved to Australia to study but she asked if I could take my boy to her parents once a month to visit, but as I was pretty pissed with their attitude I said that they were free to come visit him at our place anytime and she said no that is not how it is done, the younger people must go to the older people. But I still just said that they are welcome anytime and my boy is now 9 years old and they have never come once though we only live 10km away… oh, and no birthday cards or Chinese New Year Red Envelopes or any contact…[/quote]
For the kids sake at least, take him to see his grandparents! He doesn’t see his mum as it is, and to then deny him access to other family members, just cos all the adults are acting like boneheads, is not very fair on the boy. My sister hates her partners folks and rows with them all the time. As a consequence her/my parents and his also don’t get along very well. (You upset my daughter! My son is too good for your family!) My sisters kids love all their grandparents equally, but can’t understand why the parents and grandparents don’t all get along. I tell 5 year old Isobelle, “If you are lucky, you’ll grow up to be an idiot, just like them,” and then we laugh together at how stupid ‘grown up behaviour’ actually is.
When I asked one of my trainees whose wife is expecting, who would be watching the baby, he said his parents. I asked if he would pay them and he said probably. He added, however, that he would be shocked if they asked for money.
[quote=“TomHill”][quote=“TaipeiSean”]
My ex moved to Australia to study but she asked if I could take my boy to her parents once a month to visit, but as I was pretty pissed with their attitude I said that they were free to come visit him at our place anytime and she said no that is not how it is done, the younger people must go to the older people. But I still just said that they are welcome anytime and my boy is now 9 years old and they have never come once though we only live 10km away… oh, and no birthday cards or Chinese New Year Red Envelopes or any contact…[/quote]
For the kids sake at least, take him to see his grandparents! He doesn’t see his mum as it is, and to then deny him access to other family members, just cos all the adults are acting like boneheads, is not very fair on the boy. My sister hates her partners folks and rows with them all the time. As a consequence her/my parents and his also don’t get along very well. (You upset my daughter! My son is too good for your family!) My sisters kids love all their grandparents equally, but can’t understand why the parents and grandparents don’t all get along. I tell 5 year old Isobelle, “If you are lucky, you’ll grow up to be an idiot, just like them,” and then we laugh together at how stupid ‘grown up behaviour’ actually is.[/quote]
Well actually, my ex tried to kill herself and my boy at the same time, so she has no access to him. Courts granted me full custody and her a restraining order and pyschological help. I could have had her charged with attempted murder but chose a lesser charge so she would not go to jail and would receive help. Then her parents blaming me, threatened to take my boy from me as this is Taiwan and that they will do things the Taiwanese way, kinda like that other guy that was posting on here about having his kid snatched from him who I have been in contact with to share my experiences of the Taiwan Court System and also remember the case of the Brazilian boy here in Taiwan, that took a long time to resolve, I wouldn’t chance losing my boy…
I have all the court documents and when he is old enough and his Chinese is good enough, he can then read them and make the decision if you would like to see those people…
Oh, the mother in law also blackmailed me into paying a nice tidy some so that she would be my ex’s witness on our divorce papers. My wife said she would only accept her mother as being her witness, so I had to pay a lot of money to get divorced…So they still managed to get more money out of me… But that was a while ago and I am happy to try and share my my experiences to try and help anyone who is in a similar situation. So far I have referred my lawyer 3 times…
You’re a great dad, TaipeiSean. Keep on doing what you have to do–sounds to me like you’re gettin it right.
TomHill, you sound like a brilliant uncle, too!
Wow, TaipeiSean. Thanks for sharing! I hope my situation doesn’t end the same way, though. I’ll be sure to remember your story. I’m glad you and your boy are doing well!
What I’m wondering is how cultures with diametrically opposing customs can meet in the middle? If either side gets their way, then the other side feels it isn’t fair. Certainly communication is important, but concession as well. How do you get the other side to understand how strange their requests seem to you. Cultural empathy only works if both sides practice it, right?
I’d be interested in hearing success stories that include the opposing cultures meeting in the middle somehow and coexisting. Surely it has been done.
I don’t see any real difference. Each relationship has give and take. Each couple is made up of individuals with individual culture, if you will. Each set of in-laws will be unique. Some generalizations can be made by region, race, or culture, but relationships are never general–they’re personal, thus they’re individual. Over time, you will find that sometimes you’ve given in more, other times your partner has. Over a long time it evens out, or you split, or you learn to live with the one sided issues, whatever they are. All the best to you.
My MIL offered to look after our kids free of charge.
I’m floored that Grandparents would ask for money.
No one in my extended family would ever think about asking for money, (Western or Taiwanese). It’s just wouldn’t be done done. However, if it was a long term situation, everyone would provide some money for any big-ticket expenses (like school or camp tuition, airfare…etc).
Wise words. The other option is to get out.
My wife is taking care of the sisters daughter quite often while herself is at work.
We take her out and pay for food and the gasoline/parking that is needed to get her outside and see things.
I never heard that we get anything for this. My wife normally take the money from my pocket.
She love to play with the little girl and I don’t mind paying a few dollar to see them both happy, but maybe we should start to charge them?
[quote=“TaipeiSean”]
Well actually, my ex tried to kill herself and my boy at the same time, so she has no access to him. Courts granted me full custody and her a restraining order and pyschological help. I could have had her charged with attempted murder but chose a lesser charge so she would not go to jail and would receive help. Then her parents blaming me, threatened to take my boy from me as this is Taiwan and that they will do things the Taiwanese way, kinda like that other guy that was posting on here about having his kid snatched from him who I have been in contact with to share my experiences of the Taiwan Court System and also remember the case of the Brazilian boy here in Taiwan, that took a long time to resolve, I wouldn’t chance losing my boy…
I have all the court documents and when he is old enough and his Chinese is good enough, he can then read them and make the decision if you would like to see those people…
Oh, the mother in law also blackmailed me into paying a nice tidy some so that she would be my ex’s witness on our divorce papers. My wife said she would only accept her mother as being her witness, so I had to pay a lot of money to get divorced…So they still managed to get more money out of me… But that was a while ago and I am happy to try and share my my experiences to try and help anyone who is in a similar situation. So far I have referred my lawyer 3 times…[/quote]
Yes, that other guy is me Sean. Good to see that you are still soldiering on, and of course you have no obligation to let your boy anywhere near any of her family after how they have treated you.
As for payments to the inlaws to look after the baby. I don’t see this as a justified compensation to the inlaws for spending their day looking after the child, rather than just another excuse to get money in return for the annoyance and inconvenience of having to bring their daughter up in the first place. That’s Chinese culture.
If the MIL had to give up her job in order to look after her grandson, then yes I could understand if she asked for a decent pay. But otherwise, why pay her ? She will be in her shop earning money and the child bored out it’s mind or at home, with the child stuck in front of a TV or with a few toys and very little quality/ development time. The MIL will be laughing all the way to her bank.
[quote=“Mr He”]We had a full time nanny for our son for NT$15k per month. Now she looks after the 2 of them for NT$25k.
My MIL would do it for free, however we are more comfortable with the nanny.[/quote]
Hello,
Anyone know how to get a full time nanny (in Taichung)?
Thanks