Ouch Wolf. But seriously, the idea of explaining a split infinitive and when to use it to a group of non-native speakers strikes me as hilarious. Any one that could make sense of split infinitives would be at a level that they could read the rule and figure it out themselves.
Just came across this in an Associated press article about the Bin Laden tapes showing proof of his involvement in the bombing: “Bin Laden’s whereabouts is unknown - a $25 million reward has been posted for information leading to his capture.” That sounds horrible. What is the rule on “whereabouts”. I realize that “whereabouts” is a singular concept meaning location, but the “s” still makes treating it as a plural sound better to me. I say go with what sounds better in most cases, correct grammar be damned (although I have serious doubts that this is “correct” grammar.) Anybody got a rule to quote.
Okay, I was curious enough to go find the answer to my question. Officially, “Whereabouts” should be treated as singular unless referring to two or more people who would have different locations as in “Their whereabouts are unknown”. Sorry grammar masters but that’s phucked up. Hearing “his whereabouts is unknown” hurts my ears.
quote:
Originally posted by chainsmoker: "Whereabouts" should be treated as singular unless referring to two or more people who would have different locations as in "Their whereabouts are unknown". Sorry grammar masters but that's phucked up. Hearing "his whereabouts is unknown" hurts my ears.
Chainsmoker,
I agree with you, although the few Web sites I found that directly addressed the issue considered it to be a false singular–like mumps or measles.
I believe AP style is to use the singular verb. CNN tends to use the plural verb. The NY Times–I saw several articles that used “whereabouts are/were”, but they also ran an AP story that used “whereabouts was.”
Here’s the American Heritage Dictionary (4th Ed.) definition, which supports your cause:
Noun: (used with a sing. or pl. verb) Approximate location.
However, their example sentence supports your preference:
"Her whereabouts are still unknown. "
Here is their usage note:
“The noun whereabouts is Standard with either a singular or a plural verb, even though its ending causes it to resemble a plural noun: His whereabouts is [are] unknown. The -s ending on whereabouts can also signal that the word is an adverb, as in backwards, towards, and the like. It means essentially what where means (Whereabouts do you think you left your hat?) and is Standard English too.”
Most people won’t notice and both ways are defensible, so use what sounds best to you.
Hope this protects your ears
i was under the impression that “y’all” was singular and “all y’all” was plural. therefore the correct setence would be “all y’all ain’t my friends no more.” but then i’m just a california boy so feel free to correct me if i’m wrong.
on the thread in general, i don’t understand why some of you strict grammar types are trying to apply rules of formal written english to verbal english. imagine the world if everyone spoke their native language with textbook accuracy. how incredibly boring that would be…
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Originally posted by DDE11678: From the point of view of linguistics, if a speech pattern is commonly used by native speakers, whether it sounds "good" or "bad," it is technically "correct." So if you're from the deep South of the USA, and say "Y'all ain't my friends anymore," that is perfectly correct by linguistic standards. Many English "teachers" will still mark it incorrect though!
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Originally posted by Flipper: i was under the impression that "y'all" was singular and "all y'all" was plural. therefore the correct setence would be "all y'all ain't my friends no more." but then i'm just a california boy so feel free to correct me if i'm wrong. [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]
“Y’all” is plural, a contraction of “you” + “all.” “All” might be added to the front for emphasis. (I live in California, but am from Georgia.)
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on the thread in general, i don't understand why some of you strict grammar types are trying to apply rules of formal written english to verbal english. imagine the world if everyone spoke their native language with textbook accuracy. how incredibly boring that would be...[/QB]
First, “verbal English” is redundant, since “verbal” essentially means “of or related to words.” You could replace it in the above sentence with “oral” or “spoken.”
I don’t think anyone was suggesting that language “rules” need to strictly adhered to in spoken English. However, students of English need to learn these rules and be taught how to use them in written AND spoken English.
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Originally posted by Jeff: I believe AP style is to use the singular verb. CNN tends to use the plural verb. The NY Times--I saw several articles that used "whereabouts are/were", but they also ran an AP story that used "whereabouts was."
Both AP and the New York Times call for a singular verb (“whereabouts is unknown”). A New York Times article with “whereabouts were” is either in error or perhaps not really a Times story – Reuters, maybe (that organization is pretty sloppy when it comes to consistent style).
I would use a singular verb in all cases except for a plural subject and plural locations. “Their [separate] whereabouts were unknown.” But this is a matter of style, not grammar.
Most style guides call for “whereabouts is.” The Economist’s is an exception – though one in keeping with the majority of current popular usage.
Nice to know ya’ll have kept this thread going.
The greatest myth of all is that there is one English language.
A joke in Reader’s Digest goes something like this.
A freshman at Princeton University asked another student, “Where’s the library at?”
The other student replied, “Here at Princeton we do not end our sentences with prepositions.”
So the freshman rephrased his question: “Where’s the library at, moron?”
Jeff wrote:
imagine the world if everyone spoke their native language with textbook accuracy. how incredibly boring that would be…
Sally: Yes, indeed. That really wouldn’t be my cup of tea. But our teachers always egg us on to do so.
Nancy: I agree completely. Total accuracy makes our language as dull as a doorknob. We must always strive to be fresh and interesting when we express ourselves in English, whether we are using skimming and scanning skills when reading for pleasure or study, helping a foreigner to find his way while traveling in Taiwan, or just spending our free time with our dear friends.
Sally: You are right, of course. Besides, we must always remember that it’s all the same banana.
[Nearly actual dialogue from staff of a well-known English language publishing house, incorporating a veritable plethora of ‘textbook-correct’ English.
I think we should start a movement in Taiwan against people who are hyper “TC” (textbook-correct) as opposed to “PC” or anything else. This would include summary executions of people who use more than 2 hoary idioms per 100 words and those who believe the content of a textbook over the opinion of an educated native speaker. Unfortunately this would so thin the ranks of editorial-land in Taiwan as to render the sector practically inoperative. But, as Sally points out above, “It’s all the same banana.”
(And if anyone can let me know what this supposedly common English idiom is supposed to mean, and who uses it, I’d be most grateful.)
Terry
It was a good quote, Terry, but not mine. I was quoting Flipper but must have messed up the quote function. But real editors wouldn’t consider the overuse of such idioms to be textbook correct, so chainsmoker, sandman, Juba, and other editors on this forum should be safe for now.
As for the banana quote, it seems to mean simply “the same sort of thing”. I’m not sure who uses it and, thankfully, I’ve never heard an American utter that particular phrase.
You merkins
Back when bananas where few and far between, London society hostesses trying to get ahead would demonstrate their status by leaving a banana lying casually around the house. This led to something of a ‘fruit race’ with each hostess trying to outdo the other on the quantity of casually strewn bananas in their reception rooms.
Only the richest and best connected could keep up. But some blackguards (lit: someone who’ll stop at nothing to prolong unnaturally the life of their banana) found that just 2 or 3 bananas, strategically placed and moved at speed by servants, could give the impression of a whole bunch to visitors.
Hence the putdown (not to be used lightly): “It’s all the same banana.”
Well, done, I say, well done. What?
Wellll…
QUOTE (I think by Jeff!):
But real editors wouldn’t consider the overuse of such idioms to be textbook correct, so chainsmoker, sandman, Juba, and other editors on this forum should be safe for now.
As far as I know, I’m the chief editor of a well-known English book producing entity in Taipei. I am told by my boss that the random strewing of idioms is not only correct but much to be desired, because that’s what the (non-native-speaking) English teachers want. And I would never contradict a committee of Chinese English speakers as to the naturalness, smoothness or frequency of idiom use of a particular passage. Oh, no. Not me.
Seriously, do British speakers ever use/have they ever used “it’s all the same banana”? It came to me via a list of idioms for inclusion in materials, sent on very seriously by a well-known and well-respected professor of English on this fair island.
Terry
Stand your ground, Terry. Sure, do some checking up on it, but I’ve never heard it before. A google search on “it’s all the same banana” came up with a big goose egg (is that in your list of idioms?), which is pretty unusual.
Iron Lady, I’ll add my 2 bobs worth here and say that I’ve never heard it before either.
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Originally posted by salmon: Hence the putdown (not to be used lightly): "It's all the same banana."
Ah…but to be truly effective, you must saying it while wearing a Carmen Miranda hat!
OK, so now how many would like to buy our new “It’s All the Same Banana” line of T-shirts, tote bags, water bottles and posable action figures? I figure that with the right promotion, this could be bigger than the A-bian wear a few years ago.
Terry
Any chance of luring Musasa back and getting him/her to storm out again? I missed it ‘live’