Here’s a link you forgot to include.
quote:
Originally posted by O'Brian:Slavery was introduced to North America (Jamestown, Virginia, 1619) by the Dutch and other Europeans
and it persisted until the Civil War.
quote[quote] For God's sake, these Nazi assholes even have annual conventions![/QB][/quote]And America still has the KKK, neo-Nazis, and other supremacist groups. What’s your point? Oh, I get it, you’re a troll. Nevermind.
Look at the size of the respective movements (kkk and German new-Nazis).
Look at the anger and anti-kkk rallies when they occur.
Look at the huge amount of time spent teachnig such subjects in American schools.
Now look at German nazi rallies and schools.
Ok… now contrast.
O’Brian,
So the institution of slavery was brought to america by the Europeans. The people who made it a huge and dehumanizing industry were white Americans (who were also, incidentally “introduced by Europeans,” so perhaps this is actually further support). And so the slaughter of Native American was not the central purpose of the American quest for Lebensraum, excuse me, manifest destiny. What’s your point? Our ancestors stopped being utter fucks a few decades before theirs?
America actually did succeed in committing genocide against many native tribes (ergo "Last of the Mohicans) and blacks were kept down and strung up in trees long after the emancipation proclamation.
While there’s certainly a case for contemporary Europe being as bad or even a bit worse with race issues than the States, your assertions that the majority of Germans are still Nazi bigots is ridiculous. My experience in this regard is that Germany is a model of national contrition (in contrast to say, Japan).
There’s nothing uniquely evil about the Germans. Under similar historical conditions, I think Nazi-like parties could gain power in most places.
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Originally posted by dbbowman: Look at the size of the respective movements (kkk and German new-Nazis).Look at the anger and anti-kkk rallies when they occur.
Look at the huge amount of time spent teachnig such subjects in American schools.
Now look at German nazi rallies and schools.
Ok… now contrast.
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I hate neo-Nazis, whether they’re German, American or whatever.
By your twisted “logic,” though, I should hate all Germans because there are neo-Nazis in Germany. So I should also hate all Americans because there are neo-Nazis there too. And of course, I hate all British people because they have the National Front.
Actually, the people I REALLY hate most of all are the retards.
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Originally posted by sandman: [url=http://www.2think.org/woundedknee.shtml]Here's a link[/url] you forgot to include.
There’s a very obvious difference between what happened in Germany and what happened in the Americas, Australia or New Zealand. In Germany they coldly, methodically exterminated their neighbors, teachers, doctors, artists, etc. This does not justify what happened during the colonization of the New World but it’s not like the American Indians were a bunch of helpless victims marched off to gas chambers either.
I was quite moved by the time I spent in Cambodia. What also amazed me was that the country was healing and that individuals had put a lot of the past of Year Zero behind them.
Do I think that all Cambodians are butchers, sadists, torturers? Of course not. I admire their resolve to reconstruct a society that was almost destroyed by madmen. It has been 57 years since Germany’s madness finished. New generations understand the past, but hold little of the prejudices. A lot more than can be said about some on this site.
I’m not German, but If I were, I’d be pretty pissed off with some of you folks insinuating that Germany is still populated by Nazis.
While we’re at it, why don’t we have a bash at the Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Arabs and those damn bloodthirsty Mongolians!?!
Is this just because Germany are through to the finals in the World Cup?
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Originally posted by NFI: Do I think that all Cambodians are butchers, sadists, torturers?
No, of course not. But considering that the Khmer Rouge murdered about 1/3 of the population and the current government doesn’t appear too interested in prosecuting the KR leadership, alot of the Cambodian people aren’t too confident. And neither is the United Nations, right?
O’Brien, I included the link to argue your point that no Americans killed any Indians (I still can’t believe you were serious with that one by the way!).
I’m not suggesting a comparison with Nazi atrocities – although there’s no question that both are now considered, pretty much universally, to be genocide, whether for the objective of a “pure race” or the acquisition of land seems immaterial to me.
Well said, NFI.
And I think all this hatred is because of that German goalkeeper - he’s not human! He’s a machine! That b@stard.
I’m American. I think WWII was a long time ago; something that never should be forgotten, but something that is in the past. And from all of the Germans I’ve met and interacted with over the years, it’s obvious that most Germans AREN’T neo-nazis and in fact hate them as much as the average American hates the KKK.
Even if most Germans were neo-nazis (which clearly they are not), does that mean we should suspect and hate all Germans? Sounds like something Hitler would do…
Almost all countries in the world have shameful pasts. We need to learn and move on. In bits and pieces, overall society in my mind is slowly maturing and growing away from such atrocities through the centuries. Let’s help it move on.
My country was invaded by Germany in 1940. My grandfather had jews hidden in his attic and members of my family were active members of the resistance and one of them had to flee Denmark during the “five cursed years” (The Danish name for the German occupation.) Moreover, I have known people who got the chance to see a concentration camp from the inside.
Do I hate Germans? No. The war is a long time ago. Germans have come to grips with their history in a way that Japanese (and Chinese) could learn a lot from. I speak some German, have travelled in the country and I have liked most Germans I met.
Moreover, the number of Nazis in Germany today is very small. The hard core is probably counted in hundreds rather than thousands and the German government is monitoring them a great deal closer than FHI monitors Aryans/KKK. Right-wing terror like the Oklahoma bombing would have been impossible in Germany.
That some americans use “Nazi” as slang basically confirms that parts of the public would appear to have a limited knowledge of any historical developments outside USA. Personally I believe that people using that expression anywhere near an European is a mindless idiot
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Originally posted by sandman: O'Brien, I included the link to argue your point that no Americans killed any Indians (I still can't believe you were serious with that one by the way!).
Sorry, you misunderstood what I meant. I said (present tense) “You will not find any Americans who have ever owned slaves or killed Indians.” The Indians Wars ended in the 19th Century. Slavery in 1865. Of course Americans killed Indians. Europeans killed Indians. Chinese railroad workers in the West killed Indians. Indians killed Indians. (The last King of the Catawba Indians was murdered by the Cherokees not far from my home).
And I find it ironic that the people who are so willing to criticize the US are perfectly able to ignore (if not support) the massacres of Indians and Blacks by the Sandanista regime Nicaragua…maybe it was because the Sandanistas were leftist and anti-american?
Thanks to Sandman and the others for your support.
Just to clarify: though the term “Nazi” is originated from the members of the NASPD (called “National-Sozialist(en)”) it’s not an abbreviation by itself but rather a “nick” name / slang (?) and refers to a person or group which, and that is the sad truth, systematically killed non-Aryans under the regime of Hitler (who, as we all know, wasn’t even a German).
The word stands for mindless, cruel and unspeakable crimes, not only limited to killing but also torture, medical experiments on “live (human) subjects” and other unimaginable things.
Being a German I know that we will never get rid of that “Nazi” reputation, in fact it should not be forgotten but I haven’t been around during those days and even my parents were too young to participate in any way in WWII (my grandpa was lost however in Russia ).
So if someone blames all Germans for that I would not understand.
Yes, we do have a problem with Neo-Nazis but that’s not the common view of all Germans, it’s a small group who uses the “fame” of the WWII Nazis to draw attention and tarnish our country.
That said I can’t change being a German nor can I do something about what happended but I am sure that most Germans have learned their lesson and I am confident to say that this will not be repeated (in Germany).
So perhaps, Mr. O’Brien, you can cut me (us) some slack and think about that, perhaps you will then come to the conclusion that not all German’s are Nazis and that to prejudice a race based on a historic event isn’t really “accurate”.
One more thing to add: When I introduce myself as German some Asians will greet me with “Heil Hitler” and/or the arm goes up (like the “Sieg Heil” greeting)
Since most of them smile or laugh then I can’t really get angry with them as it just shows that they have no clue what it actually stands for and (hopefully) they don’t mean it.
So usually I will just keep quiet, at least I don’t think it funny.
quote:Absolutely. I remember reading Iris Chang's [i]The Rape of Nanjing[/i] where she details the post war reaction of Germany and Japan to their wartime atrocities. The amount of reparations and recognition by the Japanese government of past misdeeds pales in comparison to what the Germans have done. High school kids in Germany know only too well what World War II was all about. All the Japanese kids know is that they lost when the US dropped atomic bombs on them. Even now, they deny the truth about comfort women and the rape of Nanjing. [img]images/smiles/icon_mad.gif[/img]
Originally posted by Holger Nygaard: Germans have come to grips with their history in a way that Japanese (and Chinese) could learn a lot from.
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Originally posted by Holger Nygaard: That some americans use "Nazi" as slang basically confirms that parts of the public would appear to have a limited knowledge of any historical developments outside USA. Personally I believe that people using that expression anywhere near an European is a mindless idiot
I have family (they are NOT white Americans) living in Maastricht, Holland right now and they ARE worried. The expat community is very uneasy now as to what’s going on there on the continent.
http://www.expatica.com/
Have you forgotten the recent murder of Dutch politician Pim Fortuyn?
Europeans were able to forget WWI in only 20 years…what makes you think things have changed that much?
BTW, alot more Americans than Danes died at Normandy. Go to the cemeteries and take alook.
http://www.abmc.gov/no.htm
Holger,
The fact that something “has not happened” doesn’t mean that it “cannot happen.” That’s what everyone in America thought about right-wing groups until Oklahoma City, and what we thought about foreign terrorism untill 9/11. Also if the FBI can’t keep track of such groups as easily as they can in Germany because a) it’s so much larger and spread out and b) because most German anti-Nazi laws would be clearly unconstitutional in the US. The Southern Pverty Law Center, a private group, actually tracks these groups quite well and then takes care of them the American way: sue them out of existence.
Also, while Americans are certainly ignorant of a lot of things in foreign affairs and world history, Nazi Germany and the Holocaust isn’t one of them. It’s one thing that all Americans know about at least in the important outlines. That’s why “nazi” is an insult. You may think it takes it too lightly, but for most Americans nazis are safely in the realm of history. They were never the trauma that they were for Europeans. They were the people whose asses we kicked in “the Good War” and innumerable Hollywood movies thereafter.
Europeans were able to forget WWI in only 20 years…what makes you think things have changed that much?
Have we (Europeans) forgotten WWII? It’s 57 years ago and it hasn’t been forgotten.
I actually wonder what is wrong with you!? Are you just having a bad day or are you really that narrow minded as the opinions you express here?
Or in other words: do you think that only the American way is the right way, that all your government does and says is true and correct and the rest of the world has to fall on their knees when you hustle?
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Originally posted by Rascal: Have we (Europeans) forgotten WWII? It's 57 years ago and it hasn't been forgotten.
The Europeans in 1939 sure forgot WWI, didn’t they? And considering how you screwed the pooch in your most recent games in the Balkans, can you blame Americans for not having too much confidence in your abilities…or memories?
I hope this doesn’t become another match of ‘wits’ about how Americans suck or how Europeans suck. On the other hand, it would be fun to watch, I guess.
I’m from the US; I’d just like to say before all the ShiDa hits the fan that the statements O’Brian has made aren’t representative of mine, or any of my own American friends, attitude. He has not said that he is (so no offense O’Brian; we all have our own opinions), but people tend to generalize, especially against Americans lately it seems (maybe I’m just too sensitive ).
Besides, I’m not really American; I speak two languages!
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Originally posted by O'Brian:Sorry, you misunderstood what I meant. I said (present tense) “You will not find any Americans who have ever owned slaves or killed Indians.”
I stand corrected on that one. However, do you mean by that that you will find Germans that killed Jews, etc. in Germany? Surely you jest!
If there are still any octogenarian Nazi-era German mass killers left (which is debatable, these days), they sure as hell aren’t in Germany – they’ve long since fled to South America, Britain and yes, even the good ole US of A because it would have been far too unsafe for them in Germany.
Their successors mostly live in places like Oregon and Idaho these days, don’t they?