WWII was mainly between Russia and Germany. Especially the Russians paid a heavy price (20m dead vs how many Americans?). I would believe that the welfare democracies are a great deal more resilient to anti-foreign sentiment than 1930’s Germany/Italy. While Europe is suffering from a clampdown on immigration right now, the differences between then and now are great. Violence against foreigners is a problem, but racist crimes are still rare in Europe.
Moreover, none I know would ever participate in racist attacks of a kind seen in the US south in the 1960’s. Violent attacks are condemmed by society at large and the authorities in most European countries take a pretty dim view of such crimes. Even though tolerance toward especially muslim immigrants is falling, is is bloody simplistic to equalize that with racist violence.
The murder of Pim Fortuyn (who BTW was portrayed as a far right extremist) was the work of a single madman, like the murder of John/Robert Kennedy etc.
European governments did less than perfect in the former Yugoslavia, but the sentiments expressed by O’Brien are wrong, and somewhat insulting.
“…far-right parties and their supporters still only represent a small fraction of European political support. This corresponds often to no more than one-tenth and invariably less than one-fifth of the population. It also is important to remember how electoral systems can influence outcomes when interpreting particular voting results. In France, the 17 percent for Le Pen in the first round made him the runner-up; in Britain, a party that gains 17 percent in a nationwide poll is unlikely to receive a single seat in Parliament given its first-past-the-post electoral system. In Germany, where stories of skinhead marches easily gain headlines, a party must earn 5 percent to enter its parliament—something which the far right never has been able to achieve and the democratic socialists (the reformed Communist Party) have only barely managed despite strong support in the east. In short, Europe is not about to return to the 1930s; it simply has become too prosperous, too developed, too integrated and too democratic for that to happen…”
(BY: Ivo H. Daalder, Senior Fellow, Foreign Policy Studies, Brookings Inst.)
I have no problems with USA or Americans in general. I have liked most Americans I have met, as I have liked most Taiwanese, Germans, Norvegians, Swedes, Brits, Aussies, etc. People showing their prejudices and ignorance usually offend me. All nationalities harbor such fools.
I went through the Nanjing Massacre memorial site on Monday. Gang-raping hundreds of women to death, impaling babies by the hundreds on bayonets, forcing family members to rape one another on threat of death, poking eyes out with nails, mass decapitations, burning people to death, burying people alive, half-burying victims and setting dogs loose on them. 300,000 thousand brutally killed in the space of a few months. The horrors were so great that the head of the local Nazi party, John Rabe, cabled Hitler and asked him to rein in the Japanese army. He went on to set up a safe zone for refugees from the slaughter.
It’s particularly disturbing that Japan has made no restitution at all for the horrors it committed and only a handful of the perpetrators were ever brought to justice. It bothers me, too, that I knew almost nothing about this genocide – as if it didn’t matter in the West then and now.
quote:Originally posted by mergatroid:
Thanks, O'Brian, so how did "Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei" get shortened to "Na - Zi"? The NA is from national, I see, but the ZI, is that from the SOZI..... word following?
Because the letters N-A-T-I in the German word nationalsozialistisch are pronounced like “nutsy” would be in Engish, but if you had a word consisting of those four letters alone, it would be pronounced like the English “nutty.” So the spelling of the abbreviation was changed from N-A-T-I to N-A-Z-I to retain the sound of the first two syllables in the full word. Some other German abbreviations you might have seen are Gestapo (GEheime STAatsPOlizei - Secret State Police) and Stasi (STAatsSIcherheitsdienst - State Security Service - the secret police in the former German Democratic Republic.)
If you are wondering, German is not my mother tongue, although it is my mother’s mother tongue. So if there are any native German speakers out there, you are welcome to correct any mistake I might have made.
quote:Originally posted by dbbowman:
Look at the size of the respective movements (kkk and German new-Nazis).
And look what the respective governments are doing against this. And look at both constitutions while you're at it: A lot of things related to Nazis (including symbols and the like) are forbidden through the german constitution...
quote:Look at the huge amount of time spent teachnig such subjects in American schools.
Which amount is that? And when and where is that time spent? Afaik, german schools are teaching a bit more about this subject…
quote:
Now look at German nazi rallies and schools.
Yes, do it - but it will help to open your eyes…
Don’t you find it strange somehow that especially Germans in this forum are a bit sensitive when it comes to terms like “Nazi” or “Gestapo”? We know what those terms stood for, that’s why many Germans hesitate to use them very often…
Let’s not forget uncle Stalin… He starved 6 million Ukranians to death during 1932-34 because he confiscated all the grain harvests for consumption in Russia… How many of you have heard about that? I bet none of you… (Well, that’s the history of education and the mass media for you…)
While I certainly agree that many countries have had some ugly occurences in the past, never was any genocide so institutionalized throughout the echelons of society as it was in WWII Germany. I challenge anyone to give me an example to the contrary.
Moreover, the assertion that no Nazis nor people complcit with the Nazis live in Germany today is absurd. 1944 was only 58 years ago.
As for Holgar, what a wonderful family history. I hope that anecdote is a source of pride for your family forever.
quote:Originally posted by dbbowman:
While I certainly agree that many countries have had some ugly occurences in the past, never was any genocide so institutionalized throughout the echelons of society as it was in WWII Germany. I challenge anyone to give me an example to the contrary.
That depends on what you consider the ‘exchange rate’ for Asian lives versus European lives. If you’ll concede a one-to-one exchange rate, unlike most Westerners, here are some examples:
The Khmer Rouge murdered 25% of the population of Cambodia (2 million out of 8 million) over a four year period, ripping apart every echelon of Cambodian society. Mao Tse Tung killed 20 million people and Stalin and his successors killed 40 million people of many ethnicities and creeds over a span of time five times longer than WWII. The PRC has not yet finished its ‘ethnic engineering,’ still fine-tuning its genocide of Tibetan and Uighur peoples and their cultures.
I just got back from the PRC last night and while there I talked to many people about the institutional terror of the past. One forty-five year old driver I spoke with just on Tuesday was still afraid to talk about his experiences as a child during the Cultural Revolution in the Nanjing area because he wasn’t completely sure it was safe to talk openly about it with a foreigner.
Moreover, the assertion that no Nazis nor people complcit with the Nazis live in Germany today is absurd. 1944 was only 48 years ago.
As for Holgar, what a wonderful family history. I hope that anecdote is a source of pride for your family forever.
Well, that story is ordinary. I have close friends, whose families were more active.
I guess that you meant that 1945 was only 57 years ago? That means that anyone below the age of 60 can’t recall anything about WWII and that people below the age of 75 can’t reasonably be blamed for anything. Racists attacks were common in the US south up to the 1960’s right? Legal apartheid existed in the US until 1964 right? Following your line of argumentation, that makes all white US citizens born before 1946 guilty?
Your web site has an interesting name. Trying to convey a message ?
Frst, sorry for my math error, it was late at night for me.
My last comment on the subject - My only point is that the Nazi extermination of undesirable groups of people was different than any other historical genocide event. It involved major complicity of the whole society, not just the secret police and gov’t officials, but it involved students, parents, teachers, etc. Any historical analogy to Nazi Germany, IMHO, is off in a major way. It offends me to hear it analogized to other historical events.
Most of Europe, but most disturbingly Germany (due to their dubious history), is having a huge resurgence in right wing politics, manifesting itself in intolerance of foreigners and ethnic groups. I think we have seen this before.
As for the States, neither slavery, the “extermination” of native Americans nor the race riots and other racial problems of the 60’s exist in the same universe of horror as Nazi Germany.