Need to prove that "OU" at end of word can sound like (c)OW as well as sp(oo)n

Work Teaching English in Taiwan
1

Ok… I’ve got my phonics charts in front of me. According to my phonogram charts… OU only sounds like “OW” when it is in the middle of a word. And ou sounds like… OO at the end of the name, “Lou”. But… I’m consulting my charts here and “OU” never appears at the end of a word. It appears as “OO” in words like soup. But I have no proof that ou sounds like oo in Lou.

Now here is what I need. I need to prove “OU” can sound like OW at the end of a word and like “OO” at the end of the word. I’m am not used to the Chinese style of debate, and made a respected person feel bad. I’m from the Western… throw the book at 'em crush and destroy school and I went too far. :unamused: Help me out here… tell me the reason behind the rules too.

I know that in Roma Pinyin standard OW is expressed “au”, as in Andy Lau. And oo is expressed U as in Annette Lu. I’ll take an archaic pinyin as proof that ou can sound like "ow"as well. Thanks.

2

I don’t think ‘ou’ at the end exists in any words that aren’t names or loan words so that explains why it doesn’t show up in the charts.

Pinyin is not related at all to English phonics so it’s meaningless as an example.

3

Well, “thou” and “you” come to mind.

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/thou
merriam-webster.com/dictionary/you

4

But there seem to be basically no others: scrabblefinder.com/ends-with/ou/

5

Just for the record: There’s no such thing as a “Roma Pinyin” standard. There is Hanyu Pinyin, and in it the “ow” sound is standardized as “ao”, not “au”.

Andy Lau is Cantonese, and in popular romanizations of Cantonese, the “ow” sound is written as “au”.

6

What Chris said. And the vowel sound in Annette Lu is nothing like “Lou;” it’s ü, which is easy to pronounce for German and French speakers. For everyone else, say a long Eeeee while moving your lips into the shape of an O.

See? Not at all the same.

7

Well I’m not sure Lou would count since it’s a shortened version of Louis (or something like that - please correct me if I’m wrong), so originally the “ou” was in the middle of the word.

Tempo Gain’s got it with “you” though.

8

caribou

9

This is all I could find (other than Tempo Gain’s thou) in which the ending vowel sounds like cow, and it’s mighty weak:

[quote]Dou

Dou [dou] Show IPA
noun
Ge·rard [gey-rahrt] Show IPA , 1613–75, Dutch painter: pupil of Rembrandt.[/quote] dictionary.reference.com/browse/dou?s=ts

Slim pickings for me (other than Tempo Gain’s you) on words in which the ending vowel sounds like blue, but here goes:

[quote]clou [kloo] Show IPA
noun
a major point of interest or attention.[/quote] dictionary.reference.com/browse/clou?s=ts

Go to Google Books with “the clou of” in quotes: google.com/search?q=%22the+ … =bks&tbo=1

[quote]fou

fou [foo] Show IPA
adjective Scot.
drunk.[/quote] dictionary.reference.com/browse/fou?s=ts

Go to Google Books with “the man is fou” in quotes: google.com/search?q=%22the+m … =bks&tbo=1

[quote]frou·frou noun \ˈfrü-(ˌ)frü
Definition of FROUFROU

1
: a rustling especially of a woman’s skirts
2
: showy or frilly ornamentation[/quote] merriam-webster.com/dictionary/frou-frou

Go to Google Books with “assorted frou-frou” in quotes: google.com/search?q=%22assor … =bks&tbo=1

[quote]bijou
Use Bijou in a sentence
bi·jou [bee-zhoo, bee-zhoo] Show IPA
noun, plural bi·joux [bee-zhooz, bee-zhooz] Show IPA .
1.
a jewel.
2.
something small, delicate, and exquisitely wrought.
[/quote] dictionary.reference.com/browse/bijou?s=t

Go to Google books with “quaint bijou” in quotes: google.com/search?q=%22quain … =bks&tbo=1

and “delicate bijou” in quotes: google.com/search?q=%22deli … =bks&tbo=1

[quote]sou

sou [soo] Show IPA
noun
1.
(formerly) either of two bronze coins of France, equal to 5 centimes and 10 centimes.
2.
sol2 .[/quote] dictionary.reference.com/browse/sou?s=t

I see it in English once in a great while. For examples of sou, see Google Books, “haven’t got a sou”: google.com/search?q=%22haven … =bks&tbo=1

10

And the problem with most of those is that they have non-English roots and the pronunciation follows the phonics in the root language. Not exactly proof of English phonics.

11

And for speakers of Finnish, and Hungarian, and Turkish…

Sorry, I’m just language geeking… :slight_smile:

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Both thou and you have been around in some form since Old English, and both prove the point the OP wants to make. I don’t know what more you could ask for.

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Both thou and you have been around in some form since Old English, and both prove the point the OP wants to make. I don’t know what more you could ask for.[/quote]

I’m sorry I don’t consider proof to be one word (‘ou’ like cow at the end) in an entire language. Especially when that word isn’t currently part of the language. If that is proof then I have hundreds of new phonics rules to introduce.

14

Okey-doke.

15

I agree that one example doesn’t prove it conclusively, but it does prove that it’s possible for a word to be pronounced that way and accepted by English speakers. Thou is not a part of colloquial modern English, but it certainly is still a part of the language as any Bible – even modern translations – will prove.

16

Houston <-- not pronounced OW as in House, but not really pronounced as OO either, well, some people say it like h-oo-s-ton… must most say h-ew-s-ton.

Bayou?

17

The flat German pronunciation for you is, depending on region, “yow” as in h-ow.
However, referring to pronunciations back to times were recording devices didn’t exist seems a little invalid.

Why do we use gems, fruits and the sky to describe colors?
It’s the only way to guaranty consistency. For language, this consistency only exists since we have recordings.

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[quote=“Hokwongwei”]What Chris said. And the vowel sound in Annette Lu is nothing like “Lou;” it’s ü, which is easy to pronounce for German and French speakers. For everyone else, say a long Eeeee while moving your lips into the shape of an O.

See? Not at all the same.[/quote]

Thanks… I think. That’s the same sound as this taiwan phonetic symbol ㄩ, right. Thanks for teaching me a way to say it.

So back to my point and to smooth things over… You guys are stating that if one has never seen the name Lou before, there is no way, for certain to know if it should be pronounced long OO or C(ow). Case closed everyone is happy… I hope.

19

Well, you could be 90% sure it’s pronounced “loo” because that’s almost always how “ou” is at the end of a word, but there’s always that tiny possibility it’s “老” thanks to the one example we found in “thou.”

20

[quote=“hansioux”]Houston ← not pronounced OW as in House, but not really pronounced as OO either, well, some people say it like h-oo-s-ton… must most say h-ew-s-ton.

[/quote]

But for some reason, the major NYC street of this name is pronounced OW.

Yep. Another if esoteric one is “meou” a variant of meow.