Needed: A stud cat

[Chicken]

bobepine, you have constantly taken my posts and referenced them out of context. My reference to your Spockness was in answer to your calling my arguments “illogical”. As this is one of his favourite quotes I thought it was obvious. If you thought it was in reference to your name then I am perplexed and will apologise for confusing you.

And I find myself having to repeat myself. My cat is not a stray.
To answer your question of The Value of Life: I value it enough to end it if it would prevent suffering. But that is another debate. Do you have the moral fibre to stand behind your beliefs enough to post for 4 (or more) pages to defend them against others who are equally convinced they are right.

Perhaps you do. The fervour with which you present you position seem to suggest such. So in order to prevent further angst I suggest we agree to disagree. I will refrain from replying to your posts until I have given it a good period of thought.
Chicken

[bobepine]

[quote=“Chicken”] I suggest we agree to disagree.[/quote]Agreed.

bobepine

[trapjaw]

@Chicken

The Value of Life: I value it enough to end it if it would prevent suffering.

That’s commendable.

One more question: Do you value Life enough to prevent it being created in the first place if that would prevent future suffering?

[sandman]

Trapjaw, you have converted me. Drummers CAN think!
What a great couple of posts.
Chicken, I’ve been googling for a good while on the health advantages of allowing a cat to have kittens but have been unable to find even one. I did, however, find numerous (400,000 links) on a google of “Health benefits of allowing a cat to have kittens” they ALL appear to be quite the opposite – extolling the health benefits of spaying.
Check out, among others http://www.hart90.org/GeneralInformation/FelineSpay.htm then do a google on mammary tumours and even more delicious, pyometra.
What you are proposing is irresponsible in the extreme. So extreme, in fact, that I find it difficult to believe an educated person making such proposals is not playing devil’s advocate. If so, well done – you’ve fooled a lot of people. If not, PLEASE READ and think again. There are NO benefits to what you want to do. NONE.

[menghsindy]

@Chicken

bobepine, you have constantly taken my posts and referenced them out of context. My reference to your Spockness was in answer to your calling my arguments “illogical”. As this is one of his favourite quotes I thought it was obvious.

Actually, that was me. See:

@menghsindy

Your “hypothetical example” was an appallingly illogical argument. Asking people to NOT breed their cats is not at all equivalent to imposing reproductive restrictions on humans.

And I got the snide reference, thanks. Your pattern of misreading posts is akin to how you so carefully read my second message and then selected this most spurious, subjective point to rebut:

@Chicken

menghsindy: 6 moths is to young to spay in anyone’s book. I use the first heat rule as it is a good indication of full maturity (not because some folks think they need to have one heat). 9 mo to 1 year. I would not breed her at the first heat because she is too young, so fixing her before that is right out!

Yeah, I guess my family really messed up our cats by spaying them too young. Fine. Don’t spay her when she’s 6 months old or “too young” (though it was certainly old enough for my vets). That wasn’t a suggestion anyway, just a personal example.

But according to you, it sounds like this is at least your cat’s second heat. So by your own standards, sounds like she’s mature enough to be fixed. And that’s all that I’m saying here, along with many of the other commentors. All we’re saying is the facts show that it’s okay to spay your cat (as you said you had originally intended) without insisting on irresponsibly breeding her first.

[trapjaw]

Not all of us drummers are Tommy Lees… although apart from the thinking part, I do conform to other aspects of the stereotype, ie being skinny and tattooed , oh, and the ladies love me too (I wish)…

[Stray_Dog]

Just to add to the ‘best age to spay’ discussion, when I attended the Asia for Animals conference in Singapore this summer, they were talking about rapid spaying and neutering, whereby the op is done and the animal released the same day, and, if I remember correctly, safely performed on cats and dogs as young as 6 weeks or so.

Just found this after searching on Google under ‘early spay’:

http://www.winnfelinehealth.org/reports/early-neuter.html

[quote]The results of this study so far indicate that the differences between cats neutered at 7 weeks and 7 months are insignificant. The differences observed between animals in Groups 1 [neutered or spayed at 7 weeks of age] and 2 [neutered or spayed at 7 months] and the animals in Group 3 [not neutered until maturity], while in some cases statistically significant, are not differences which appear to affect the health of the animal in a negative way.

While the final results will depend on the analysis of long-term follow-up, the indications are that early neutering is not detrimental to the overall health of the animal. From the perspective of shelters and particularly in respect to the problem of surplus puppies and kittens these results are encouraging. If all the animals adopted from shelters, including puppies and kittens, are neutered prior to adoption, there should be a corresponding decrease in the numbers of animals euthanized each year in this country. Preliminary results from Alachua County, near the University of Florida at Gainesville, would seem to support this theory.[/quote]

In terms of behavior, after 7 months, the cats in Group 3 [not neutered until maturity] were noticeably less affectionate and more aggressive prior to altering than the cats in Groups 1 and 2. Contrary to popular opinion, neutered animals were as active as their unaltered age mates.

Hope that helps.

Sean

[bobepine]

[quote=“sandman”]So extreme, in fact, that I find it difficult to believe an educated person making such proposals is not playing devil’s advocate. If so, well done – you’ve fooled a lot of people.[/quote]I was thinking the same thing, hard to believe he’s for real. Very extreme indeed.

bobepine

[bobepine]

@menghsindy

[quote=“Chicken”]bobepine, you have constantly taken my posts and referenced them out of context. My reference to your Spockness was in answer to your calling my arguments “illogical”. As this is one of his favourite quotes I thought it was obvious.

Actually, that was me. See:[/quote]Talk about taking things out of context…Wasn’t even me…Apology accepted anyways, I’m not a Star Trek fan and I did not get the reference.

I agreed to disagree with you but that’s easy…As for not replying, soothe yourself, I couldn’t care less. You posted a request for a male stud on a bulletin board where many regulars are animal lovers well in touch with the strays situation in Taiwan. What did you expect?

[quote=“StrayDog”]
The posts you read above are not meant to be rude or insulting, and certainly were not off-topic, but they were helpful - to the stray-cat population.[/quote]
Besides you said this:[quote=“Chicken”]So look at it from my POV. It is not my job to convince you, unless you have a male cat in mind. It is your job to convince me.[/quote] That is the only thing you said in this thread which potentially makes sense providing you’re not just playing the devil’s advocate. [quote=“Chicken”]Your not convinced I know what I’m doing… Good! I like to keep people off balance. It’s easier to tip them over. [/quote] That’s the problem here you see. Having fun tipping people over are you? Try again, I haven’t seen you tip anyone over in this thread yet, in fact I will summarize that for you in this post.[quote=“Chicken”]To answer your question of The Value of Life: I value it enough to end it if it would prevent suffering. But that is another debate.[/quote] What do you mean it’s another debate? No way! Nice try…You wrote this:[quote=“Chicken”]Therefore, as it has been pointed out to me that cats do not have a high value, and to avoid your social/legal preventatives, I will have to euthanise them. [/quote] I believe that is sufficient to question you about life and its value.

[quote=“Chicken”]
And I find myself having to repeat myself. My cat is not a stray. [/quote]Did I say that? [quote=“I”] I say breeding strays because it’s common sense that if everyone thought of this like you do, there would be more animals on the streets. [/quote] Who’s repeating himself now? …

[quote=“Chicken”]Do you have the moral fibre to stand behind your beliefs…[/quote] Erm…This is a bulletin board where people post their opinions. Again, one where many animal lovers post. It’s natural for any animal lover who is conscious of Taiwan strays problems(overpopulation) to disagree with you. Every pets I’ve ever had were strays, they were all neutered or spayed. I think that does it. Here’s [url=How do you deal with the loss of a pet? story.[/url] Maybe that will answer your morality question.[quote=“Chicken”]Do you have the moral fibre to stand behind your beliefs enough to post for 4 (or more) pages to defend them against others who are equally convinced they are right. [/quote] Who is convinced? You have two posters who posted in partial agreement with you. NeonNoodle and teggs. [quote=“StrayDog”]NeonNoodle…
The point is that stray cats were until very recently the kind of cat that you are trying to breed! To not want a stray is to not want the cat you’re breeding, which simply does not make sense and explains the ignorance behind the cause of overpopulation. It just helps breeders disassociate themselves from the problem. [/quote][quote=“teggs”]
I’m sure Chicken’s kittens (fu**ed up as that may sound) will all go to great homes and make wonderful pets. I also see Stray’s point … it’s a difficult one to call! [/quote] So NeonNoodles agrees with you but his post makes little sense as clearly pointed out by StrayDog and teggs also agrees it sound fucked up to breed more kittens.

As for “defending them against others who are equally convinced they are right”, all I can say is your argument is futile. Here’s why:

[quote=“StrayDog”]Sorry to be so blunt, but my colleagues and I are the ones taking care of the overflow that people like yourself cause. We’re the ones who have to care for them, feed them, and bury them. If they survive, we then have to compete with people such as yourself when it comes to finding them homes. [/quote][quote=“Little Yellow Dog”]Please educate yourself.[/quote][quote=“Juba”]Chicken, I hope the message is getting through. Please get your cat neutered now.[/quote][quote=“menghsindy”]The population of healthy cats is far from extinct here… but the number of responsible, loving pet owners is definitely limited. [/quote][quote=“LilyandScott”]Your other option is to take your pick of literally thousands of cats and kittens around this country and raise them as you would your own litter.
You can feel great that you have saved however many cats you take under your wing, you are giving these poor creatures a life and a home and you can feel happy you are not contributing to the problem.
[/quote][quote=“Woudsprite”]Chicken, have you ever thought of adopting a litter of kittens that has been found but are not mature enough to be on their own.[/quote][quote=“Sandman”]It doesn’t. There are hundreds of cat breeders here. There are hundreds of unwanted purebred cats on the streets dying slowly. Why add more? Unless you plan to keep the whole litter yourself for the next 15-18 years, you are adding to the problem.[/quote][quote=“Tigerman”]You (chicken) apparently believe that allowing your cat to give birth to a litter of kittens will be beneficial both physically and psychologically to your cat. Let’s assume that such is actually true. Can you measure the amount of benefit that your cat will receive against the risk that some of the kittens will face and against the problem of cat over-population that already exists? In other words, how much more healthy, in both physical and psychological ways, will your cat be if it gives birth to a litter of kittens as opposed to not? And how will your decision to breed your cat affect the already existing population of cats? Is breeding your cat and bringing into this space more cats really worth any possible benefit to your cat’s physical and mental well-being? [/quote][quote=“trapjaw”]
One more question: Do you value Life enough to prevent it being created in the first place if that would prevent future suffering?[/quote]
You see, you can question my moral fibre for disagreeing with you but I’d say perhaps I’m just agreeing with the many above quoted posters. It’s all the same because they all disagree with you. [quote=“Chicken”]I will refrain from replying to your posts until I have given it a good period of thought. [/quote] Sounds good to me.

bobepine

[Chicken]

Bobepine: I’m afraid I have to take back part of my apology to you. Your reaction caused me to assume you knew what you were saying, but this has proved not to be true. Once again you have taken my posts out of context and focused on one part rather than the whole.

My reference to Spock wan NOT directed to you! You stole that from the rightful owner: menghsindy. He was quite angry at you and wants it back.

In the plethora of links you sent me you say “I found a female kitten today. She has a bad eye infection, she is emaciated and she was diagnosed with pneumonia” This is NOT the cat I want right now. I hope all cats like this find good homes but I am not looking for that now. When I got my last cat I was looking for a young abandoned cat. Her only problem was that she was too young to be away from her mother. I wish that I had known about Straydog or some of you others then as I had a hard time finding the cat I wanted.

You seem determined to deny people there right to chose the cat they want. Although your intentions seem good, your attitude is very off putting.

Although the cat health URL’s don’t address some of the issues I remember and many use faulty logic to entencify there arguments, they have shown me one thing:

menghsindy, I do owe you an apology. Seems my info on fixing was dated (thanks StrayDog). I will neuter my male cats much earlier now. I still feel spaying too early is not a good idea, but the new methods are much less intrusive and can be done earlier than I thought. Because my female cat is indoors only I feel better waiting until later. But if she was able to get outside I probably would have her spayed before her first heat.[/quote]

[sandman]

@chicken

Because my female cat is indoors only I feel better waiting until later. But if she was able to get outside I probably would have her spayed before her first heat.

Thank god for that. A lot of unwanted cats would thank you if they could speak.

[Battery9]

The future of any animal is uncertain. Whether it is adopted, rescued or bred from your own animal. Nothing guarantees a stable home for 15 years. Some people love their own animals, and they want to see their offspring…showing them pictures of some strange animals won’t do the trick.

[bobepine]

[quote=“Battery9”]If you want someone on your side…dont belittle them. Ease them into the idea, show them the options. No insults, no freaking out. That’s what I think.[/quote]Anyone who knows me would know that I think “being nice is the right thing to do”. I have been advocating that on Forumosa more than anyone I know.

This said, you’re still right. I did belittle Chicken.

[quote=“Chicken”]Although your intentions seem good, your attitude is very off putting.
[/quote]You’re right. Apology in order but to be honest and as civil as I can, you’re making things difficult.

And BTW, I’m French Canadian so Star Trek wasn’t really around much for most of my life. I know who Spock is but I honestly never picked up on your reference about logic.

Chichen posted Sun Dec 04, 2005 4:07 pm

@Chicken

You say I am illogical. Ok Spock. I am human.

Chicken posted Mon Dec 05, 2005 10:16 pm

@Chicken

bobepine, you have constantly taken my posts and referenced them out of context. My reference to your Spockness was in answer to your calling my arguments “illogical”. As this is one of his favourite quotes I thought it was obvious. If you thought it was in reference to your name then I am perplexed and will apologise for confusing you.

[b]Chichen posted Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:11 pm

@Chicken

[/b]Bobepine: I’m afraid I have to take back part of my apology to you…My reference to Spock wan NOT directed to you!

Did I misread something? There are three possibilities here…The first one is you just can’t follow a thread and make proper references while you insist I take your comments out of context.

@menghsindy

[quote=“Chicken”]bobepine, you have constantly taken my posts and referenced them out of context. My reference to your Spockness was in answer to your calling my arguments “illogical”. As this is one of his favourite quotes I thought it was obvious.

Actually, that was me. See:[/quote]

The second possibility is that you’re misreading yourself and in this case I hope this post helps.

The third possibility is that you’re just dishonest and playing a game I will not name.

bobepine

[Chicken]

[quote=“Chicken”]I will answer the only good question I have been given in this entire multy page debate.

I have good homes for 1 cat and a possibility of another. I want one and the father can have one. That is 2 for sure and 2 possible. I have also had 3 or 4 people say there would like to see them, but they don’t count in my books because they are not dedicated to staying in Taiwan. I am estimating a litter of 4 as an average for a first birth to a healthy cat but know there might be many more. There will also be no time pressure on me to get rid of them as my house is big enough now, but I expect them to go fast as kittens are cuter than cats.

Other questions.: You say I am illogical. Ok Spock. I am human.

If I did not answer your question please read my posts again. They have been answered.[/quote]

This is the whole post you took personaly bobepine. Did I mention your name at all? I will admit I made 2 small mistakes there. 1: When you reacacted personaly I assumed you knew what you were doing. I will not do so again. 2: I did not check my post to see if you quoted my properly. I will not let that happen again.

I’ll get back to the rest of you when I have more time and a spell checker. I might be slow responding because I have my wedding reception this weekend and my parents are here.

[Juba]

@Chicken

I have my wedding reception this weekend.

What are you having for the main course - [url=Needed: A stud cat - #38 by Chicken polar bear[/url] or kitten kebab?

[914]

I think Chicken gets the point now. I’ve been reading this thread and while I do not agree with Chicken’s request and hope no one takes Chicken up on his offer, I FEEL as animal lovers, people shouldn’t be so accusatory and aggressive. That’s how animal lovers become viewed as fanatics.

Chicken’s thread was a request for a male cat to breed with his female cat. Everyone’s given their thoughts and he has replied as logically as he can. I’m sure you have managed to make him rethink his request.

But keep in mind, you can’t force your views on someone else, then when they don’t agree with you, you start bashing them. It doesn’t make him a bad person. Misinformed, maybe, but I’m sure this thread has been edumactional to all of us.

We at animalstaiwan.org have dealth with a ROT of extra unwanted puppies and kittens because of owners who wanted to breed them and then realized a while later that they can’t find homes for them or they were just too much to handle.

Please think again, Chicken. By the way, I’m against you breeding your cat. The positives of desexing far outweigh the negatives. There are plenty of links in this thread for you to realize that.

914

[Mother_Theresa]

@914

The positives of desexing far outweigh the negatives.

I’m sure most married people would agree.

[Chicken]

@Juba

[quote=“Chicken”]I have my wedding reception this weekend.

What are you having for the main course - [url=Needed: A stud cat - #38 by Chicken polar bear[/url] or kitten kebab?[/quote]

This is in Cha Yi, so probably rat. The sugar cane rat is very tender this time of year. :help:

But I did make sure there are no testicles served, so it is strictly BYO testicles.

And to make everyone feel better the cat is out of heat now. There were offers but none were suitable (did I mention I was picky?). The only one close was a flee bitten scrawny thing. Soooo, I will be looking for a good vet soon. Any suggestions near SheDa? Our old vet was very nice but way south in Xindian.

And no, I don’t want a kitten now. The wife was ok with breeding, but now does not want a new cat. Give me time to warm her to the idea. So are 2 cat homes better than one? My cat is indoor only and very bored. I am used to cats that can go out. Any links to how to keep indoor cats sane?

[bobepine]

[quote=“Chicken”]
And to make everyone feel better the cat is out of heat now… Soooo, I will be looking for a good vet soon. [/quote]

Great news! :bravo:

[quote]So are 2 cat homes better than one?[/quote] Some cats are better off in a single pet home as they are too nervous around other animals. That’s the case with one of our cats. The humane society where we got her in Canada told us she would be happier with no other pets.

Unfortunetly for her, we rescued another cat, they now lived in the same house for more than a year and they still do not get along. Regardless, I think they still keep each other from being bored.

Some cats will find it easier to have a companion around the house. It depends on your cat’s personality.

Best,

bobepine

[Big_Fluffy_Matthew]

I’ve got a ginger tom. Bad sense of humour though, keeps jumping in the bath, when it’s full, not funny :loco: Fine set of testicles though, he would have made a good stud… if he still had them, got them chopped off a few weeks ago.