Now it’ll be on my radar. Actually my daughter always comments when she hears a local speak English. I’ve taught her to assume that everyone can (or that they can at least understand it), so she’ll watch her mouth.
Could have easily been Reddit. I remember a thread on there like that recently.
I’m trying to unpack this statement but having trouble. Are you actively discouraging people from saying/doing anything that causes Taiwanese nationals to dislike foreign residents? And if so, wouldn’t that kind of thing also be harmful to a democracy?
I may be missing something here, as I haven’t seen MrWhy’s YouTube channel. I also don’t know how you’re working to convince the government to tear down unfair citizenship laws.
I’m just trying to understand you. Further details would be welcome.
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English today has a lot of French words for the same socio-linguistic reason.
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Yes to an extent. Nobody’s saying you can’t have criticisms. But we’re foreigners without the ability to join as citizens without giving up, for us at least while our Southeast Asian friends are barred. While it’s not EXPRESSLY forbidden to get citizenship, it already serves a high enough barrier already for almost everyone.
Because of that, this means that the 20000 APRC holders and over 500000 ARC holders are not constituents. We can’t vote. While we can express our opinions, they’re often lost to the wind and COMPLETELY dependent on generous goodwill provided by the likes of @au/@audreyt or the few politicians a few of us on these forums have met or gotten to know. They’re not accountable to us and since the barriers to entry are high, they will continue to be unaccountable to us. They are, however, accountable to their actual constituents, and if politicians decide we’re more trouble than it’s worth, we will get the axe. They will throw us under the bus and not lose sleep over it. The politicians primary concern is getting votes by selling their platform. Without power, they cannot effect anything. If you’ve watched, or at least read the Coronavirus Taiwan topic, you know that the media love to ask stupid questions or you may also know from the media’s hounding, harassment, embellishment of facts about foreigners to create a juicy story that gets the clicks. You can see throughout this thread that Bailingguo have no reservations
These can sour the mood in Taiwan. We’re already implied that we’re entitled fucks that get paid too much to do nothing but be white. Every time a foreigner hits the news because they did something illegal that even locals do like littering.
Piss off enough people? Taiwan could go full Japan or even China. Japan is in serious need of immigrants and they still decide that foreigners aren’t worth the problems. China doesn’t want to hear what your (their words) white imperialist brainwashed self has to say, they’re trying to get ALL things what they deem as foreign influence out of China. It doesn’t matter that I agree that tossing a banana peel is not a big deal cause they’re biodegradable. Our negative actions are going to be magnified and there’s going to be nobody to stand up for you because we can’t do the we’ll vote for someone else schtick cause we can’t vote! Same sex couples are constituents, they got the change they needed. We’re not constituents so we can’t expect anything and it’s going to take a lot of poking and prodding to convince people why letting us in is a good idea.
I don’t know a single country that has a foreign influencer that attained popularity with the locals by creating a channel dedicated to SOLELY bashing the country as described in @MrWhy’s profile.
The anonymity IMO makes it cowardly and throws the rest of us foreigners under the bus. I can get behind expressing your opinions, but one, in the way @mrwhy intends to do it, it would just come across as salty and rude, if not wumaoish, unlike Nathan of This is Taiwan
Or Life in Taiwan
These are polite and respectful criticisms grounded in truth and their opinions, but don’t come from a place of malice, but genuine criticism from people who are clearly independent in their editorial stance. If @mrwhy intends to create a channel dedicated to ONLY bashing Taiwan, then he may face accusations of being a wumao, salty foreigner, and suggestions to leave if he doesn’t like it. What does he intend to accomplish? He’s not going to enact change, especially if he’s insulting the country as a non-constituent. He’s not going to cause people to be like, ‘you know what, yeah we’ve been pretty bad, this anonymous foreigner is speaking nothing but truth and we need to improve’. He’s going to unnecessarily anger people especially if his following, consisting of salty foreigners and wumaos muddying the water, grow. He might say he’s looking to introduce balance, but again, since foreigners aren’t a voting bloc, nothing’s going to change because they. aren’t. accountable. to. us. Why are there foreigners even making positive videos that he thinks there are too much of? Because people who aren’t interested in Taiwan don’t move here. Most foreigners move here because they want to. Of course they’re gonna like their adopted home, and those who might find that Taiwan is not for them, usually know pretty quickly and leave before entrenching themselves. I think it’d be really self-defeating to literally move to a country you don’t like and then entrench one’s self here. Of course the bias is going to be towards the positive. I moved here and entrenched myself here cause I like it here and I want to stay, even if I make less than in Canada. And I’m somebody who has rights in THIRTY ONE countries! Twenty Seven EU countries, three EEA countries, Canada and it’s ten provinces/three territories excluding my permanent residence privileges here in Taiwan. I have such a big amount of land that I can go to that I cannot practically do every single one of them, although, I have plenty of choice with great options. I picked Taiwan. I like Taiwan.
Taiwan isn’t a business looking for @MrWhy’s money, @mrwhy is not a shareholder in the country, they’re not accountable to him. But we, foreigners here need them if we want an outlet to express our complaints. If we’re even going to have a smidgen of a platform to air out any complaints we have, we’d best be respectful, polite, balanced ourselves while we wait for dual citizenship to cement our place as a true voting bloc where the politicians CAN be accountable to us and we have some power. This is why I am discouraging someone from doing something that can negatively affect perceptions of us, because the only result that comes from this is hurting foreigners. We know Taiwan, a fairly homogenous country doesn’t have the same sensitivity training that we are given in the west, particularly in multicultural societies because there are few, if any Taiwanese that are a different race and those are a fairly recent phenomenon. The culture, especially on how foreigners are treated is going to take time to change, but without a constituency that cares about foreigners’ rights, it’s going to remain glacial. If one comes in angry and seething and offensive, expect that people will dig in their heels and…it could even turn things backwards if people are turned off, as I mentioned above. If this was to go to referendum…we’d be stuck having to convince the country…while not being allowed to campaign.
So Yes. I am using my free speech to discourage him from this.
No. I’m allowed to have my opinions about it as well. Point continues after quote.
I’m not a prosecutor. Freedom of speech goes both ways and I have my opinions that I’ve detailed above. I can’t prevent him from doing what he wants to do, I’m weighing in and using my free speech to offer perspective on why what he wants to do might not be a good idea and why his actions might hurt himself and us. Freedom speech doesn’t mean freedom from consequences, it simply protects the person from legal sanction, retaliation, censorship, and even in the US, this isn’t absolute. Freedom of speech is a negative right, meaning the government takes no action on said opinions and I am not obligated to help platform his opinions. We know how Taiwanese public opinion works, how the media works and how often we’re made to look bad, since as foreigners we don’t have rights in Taiwan for the most part and nobody is obligated to help our case and we’re quite hobbled, laying off, and instead being helpful towards entrenching foreigners’ rights to enact the change he wants to see.
So no @mrwhy I have no deep problems with democracy because I disgree with your methods, opinions. My right is just as much your right.
How can we be a force for good if we’re not a voting bloc?
@mrwhy seems to care about this, i dunno, MyTaiwan is one of the influencers that is largely positive towards Taiwan to begin with, but… the three parties are not accountable to the foreigner and not obligated to even reply to him. He’s not a constituent. The only way we would be able to hold them accountable is when we’re able to become citizens when we can’t be ignored, otherwise we’ll continue to be seen as guests trying to redecorate someone else’s house. That’s not what we want.
I’m not repressing or threatening or prosecuting @mrwhy. I’m offering perspective on why I think his actions might be detrimental to himself and us.
He’s not breaking forum rules. I’m not intending to do anything. But anything he or you or I or whoever may be subject to debate and that might include opinions he or you or I or whoever don’t like. I particularly don’t like things that may negatively affect me (directly or indirectly) or other foreigners. I have similarly called out a person who was thinking on absconding after being charged.
@mrwhy If you can’t or are unwilling see or understand how the people around you feel, foreigners and Taiwanese alike, you will fail in convincing anyone. Your (very wrong) attack against my understanding of democracy demonstrates you were unwilling to understand why I would say that and why someone like me would feel that way. I have already been turned off by your attitude towards me in this reply. If your attitude towards the inevitable criticism in this case remains unchanged…
All I can say is Good Luck.
He doesn’t have one yet from what I can tell.
Over the years as I’ve become more cognisant at the citizenship issue. Maybe the first year or two wasn’t on my mind, but I like it here and as I keep running into walls, IE phone and finance, some types of land etc… because of our foreigner status, it’s become important that citizenship be on the table for long term immigrants like you and I.
You and I both know that it’s not easy, and for many of us practically impossible to become citizens because of the renunciation requirement that isn’t enforced on locals here, giving them the advantage. Many of us have significant ties to our original countries, whether they be for business or family.
I don’t know how often you follow my posts, but I have indicated many times that I do silent advocacy for us immigrants, especially towards the idea of citizenship so we can remove these DAMN RESTRICTIONS on us. A friend of mine who was black was told at a gym that she needed to pay double…because she was black. Like WTF! Last election I’ve gotten to know a few people in the policymaking sphere and a couple others here on the forums also know people. Every time I exclaim ‘I am calling the MP’. I mean it. I literally offer my opinions directly to parliamentarians’ offices and I’ve helped at least one other forumosan do the same for their particular situation. They may feel free to out themselves in this thread but I won’t out them of respect. But I do so respectfully and express gratitude, like adults…and legally, since our legal avenues for protest are limited. But citizenship is the only way to truly enshrine our right to be heard and for many, dual citizenship is the only option. It’s gonna take effort. I have my own complaints but I’ve largely ignored them because I can’t change anything as I’m not a citizen. That’s why I don’t put my energy into small things like the member who got charged $10 more at the hospital. I don’t have mindshare for it all. I don’t have mindshare for that spite-taiwan-thread. They can be angry for all I care but they’re not helping themselves by stewing in their anger. All of these have the root problem with the citizenship and these unfair things will keep happening as long as there is no bloc of voters thinking about our issues and as long as there remains a significant amount of people who stereotype us as entitled fucks that get paid for being white…we have an uphill battle to gain empathy for the constant glass walls we run into to do BASIC adult things.
I have to respect the work Minister Tang (@au/@audreyt) has done for us in listening to our opinions, but the reality is, it’s a courtesy first and foremost, and we need to be grateful to the ears we are given, lest we burn our bridges and goodwill.
I hope now with a shiny new APRC, I can open my own little office and take time to organise and help more with advocating for us.
I support @mrwhy’s ability to express opinions. Just please… be cognisant of the people around you and you who affect. Until we have a clear path to citizenship, we’re stuck as second class in a weird limboland. I’m learning more and more about what I am doing every day. Learning how to dance around the culture, remain respectful and tasteful. If all you do is piss people off, then…what have you accomplished? What’s the point?
Thank you. I’m quite tired and I spent hours writing this.
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They are missing the “K” of the “KKK”
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Here’s an update from yesterday’s show. Apparently they read through this entire thread and responded.
Ken was quite pissed off with our commentary here because he thought he was misunderstood. The first excuse was that it must be the Chinese level is not good enough. However in reference to the offensive things I thought they said I will quote them directly. They explained this all as 幹話 like talking nonsense. I also said they were joking but perhaps they don’t realize that their jokes help to perpetuate stereotypes against foreigners living here.
My quote:
What they actually said:
Episode 912
20：48
凱莉： 就不能一直出去把妹啊
哈哈哈
Ken: 他們沒有這樣講。 他們只說這樣子台灣，台灣這樣子對嗎？ 我真的內心真的是狂喊 ‘go back to your own fucking country’
24：44
Ken: 可是老外都有病毒 just joking just joking
凱莉：yeah 我離他們會很遠
Ken:. 反正你打了疫苗
哈哈哈哈
凱莉： 不夠， 一劑而已！
Now let me emphasize that they were criticizing a crazy person in whatever group Ken was talking about. However even crazy people are entitled to their opinion. Just think what would happen if you were to tell a person in your home country (crazy or not) ‘go back to your fucking country’? And Ken didn’t say that, he wanted to. And then decided this was appropriate to share on the show.
Did I explain that well enough Ken? There are many many foreigners here who speak Chinese because we live here. Our Chinese is good enough and we listen to your show. More than just 3 or 4 of us.
Next they go on to talk about how some up thread complained about being called 老外 and that’s a racial term. And they even admitted this refers to the traditional blonde haired foreigner whereas southeast Asian may get a more racist description. I personally am not bothered by 老外 as I’ve gotten used to it. But I know when used to describe someone many people would prefer to be called just the guy in the red shirt, etc. So they are interested to know what you would prefer to be called.
Honestly, I would just like them to address perhaps why that crazy foreigner was complaining about his salary decreasing. Perhaps you could have a real discussion about how the pandemic has hurt foreigners working here. How much assistance do honest working foreigners deserve?
You can listen to their response here around 6:49
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These two sound like pieces of work.
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It’s KKK Ken 
Ken go back to China.
I am not clicking on the link as not to add one more hit to this channel.
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Just a joke bro! BRUH!
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“Lao wai” never bothered be much, although Increase people who try to call USians “Lao wai” in the US. The radio guy seemed to think saying “go home” was okay since he was directing just at one person who was complaining. He just doesn’t get that those words discount the residence rights of foreigners in general and their contributions to Taiwan society. I don’t perceive malice as much as misunderstanding.
that’s hilarious
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Post of the year. While many / most / if not all of us are proponents of democracy, we are not participants without citizenship.
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Bottom line: they’re assholes who have no problems using racialized stereotypes and xenophobia for cheap laughs. And they’re not funny.
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I liked how this Ken guy says he is Canadian, I guess I’ve lived in Taiwan about the same time he lived in Canada, but still wont be able to be Taiwanese 
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Correct me if I am wrong on this , but I do not think KKK Ken is actually allowed two nationalities under Taiwan law just that he had his Taiwan one first , so he/she did not need to prove renunciation of the Canadian one , as he already had a Taiwanese one? For example you cannot run for political office in Taiwan while holding the nationality of another country ?
It’s not that dual citizenship is banned, but the choke point is when foreigners come to Taiwan they need to renounce. And dual citizens are banned from public office. But the fact that it is written that dual citizens are banned from public office shows that they allow dual citizenship.
It’s perfectly legal for me to renounce my Canadian, become Taiwanese, run to Canada for two years, reacquire Canadian citizenship and keep both.
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Got it. I think for all commonwealth members that can be done, but harder for Americans (USA) right ? So, if say I became a Taiwan citizen I could say I got back British nationality and have no.issues? When any of my kids want a visa for China they have to say that they also hold another country’s passport.
Ummmm. It depends. If you renounce, you have family behind that can sponsor your entry, removing a big hurdle. But a lot of countries have reduced wait times for former citizens to naturalise.
Yes.
If they are Taiwanese with you, then just get the Taiwan Compatriot Pass. It’s easier and practically gives the same citizenship privileges in China. Don’t say squat about other nationalities.
I say privileges cause China doesn’t have rights. LOL
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