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Legal Legal - Marriage
21

abram. i do understand your frustration with the whole affair.

… And well, when I was told that it was indeed the case, then well… At first I just thought that it was well… A joke from a Taiwanese girl angry because you dropped her. When I discovered that you were indeed married, then well it was a nasty chock. It seems that getting it registered here before, so you both agree that you are hitched before any banquets is the way to go.

Moreover, your last comment regarding the possibility that you can register it in Taiwan and then get it annulled or apply for a divorce in NZ. Now, that’s something to look into.

What if… Now, I have sound reason to believe that the divorce laws in Denmark would favor me. Therefore if I were to file for divorce, I would do it in Denmark, and then bring the certified cert back to Taiwan in order to be stricken of the household registration of the other half. Wonder if that would be feasible.

22

[quote]abram. I do understand your frustration with the whole affair.

… And well, when I was told that it was indeed the case, then well… At first I just thought that it was well… A joke from a Taiwanese girl angry because you dropped her. When I discovered that you were indeed married, then well it was a nasty chock. It seems that getting it registered here before, so you both agree that you are hitched before any banquets is the way to go.

Moreover, your last comment regarding the possibility that you can register it in Taiwan and then get it annulled or apply for a divorce in NZ. Now, that’s something to look into.

What if… Now, I have sound reason to believe that the divorce laws in Denmark would favor me. Therefore if I were to file for divorce, I would do it in Denmark, and then bring the certified cert back to Taiwan in order to be stricken of the household registration of the other half. Wonder if that would be feasible.[/quote]

Unfortunately it’s no joke. The Taiwanese girl isn’t angry (we had a completely amicable lunch together a couple of days ago, sorting out “where to from here”) but she is concerned that she is no longer single and free to marry under Taiwanese law. I owe her that certainty, at least.

Thanks for the suggestion about Denmark. Unfortunately, having shouldered the rather large cost of photos, reception in Taiwan and a few plane fares (without the help of hung bao’s), I’m too far in debt to consider any more international travel.

It won’t be a bitter and difficult divorce – just a sad a regretful one. She’s not the sort of person who will try and pull some sort of swifty; having said that, however, I will only be signing things on sound legal advice (having had one nasty surprise, I’m not going to leave myself open to another).

I’ll look into every available option before signing up for the marriage, but if that’s what it has to be, well… that’s what it has to be.

(By the way, thanks for more sympathetic tone in the most recent post :slight_smile: )

23

I would sign one of those pre nupts before you sign the wedding cert (registration). At this stage you have to look at it as a mutual dissolving of a partnership ( like in business)… and therefore should not let yourself exposed in any way

whatever about the uncertainity at the moment… there will no uncertainty when you register the marriage… ok you say she is nice now and wants everything to be closed like you… but you never know… what happens if when you register the marriage she starts making demands… ok you say she is not like that… but why not cover your ass just in case

24

[quote=“TNT”]I would sign one of those pre nupts before you sign the wedding cert (registration). At this stage you have to look at it as a mutual dissolving of a partnership ( like in business)… and therefore should not let yourself exposed in any way

whatever about the uncertainity at the moment… there will no uncertainty when you register the marriage… ok you say she is nice now and wants everything to be closed like you… but you never know… what happens if when you register the marriage she starts making demands… ok you say she is not like that… but why not cover your ass just in case[/quote]

Yeah, that’s pretty sound advice. Point duly noted. Like you say, as soon as something’s signed it removes all doubt, and once the marriage is registered all sorts of unforeseen legal obligations could kick in.

25

Abram, did you sign ther marriage certificate? ]

Then how the hell can you be married.

I may be wrong, but check your Taiwanese legal advice (and then double check it).

Brian

26

[quote=“Bu Lai En”]Abram, did you sign ther marriage certificate? ]

Then how the hell can you be married.

I may be wrong, but check your Taiwanese legal advice (and then double check it).

Brian[/quote]

Yeah, that was my initial reaction too: “How the hell can I be married?” But the repeated assurances that I am indeed married under Taiwanese law (from almost everyone who has a claim to any knowledge of Taiwan’s legal system - including lawyers) are beginning to shake my confidence. I’m planning to do a lot more double-checking before signing anything.

27

[quote=“abram”]
Yeah, that was my initial reaction too. How the hell can I be married? But the repeated assurances that I am indeed married under Taiwanese law (from everyone who has a claim to any knowledge of Taiwan’s legal system - including lawyers) are beginning to shake my confidence. [/quote]
Then obviously they can sit you down… find the law on the internet or on one of their law books and translate it word for word to you on the spot

28

[quote=“TNT”]
Then obviously they can sit you down… find the law on the internet or on one of their law books and translate it word for word to you on the spot[/quote]

I guess when someone does that I’ll stop whingeing and face reality.

29

Let’s put it this way.

Whenever I have to prove that I was married, I have to show people my marriage certificate.

For your ex-fiance/wife to prove that she’s married to you, she should bloody have to do the same.

Brian

30

I have a weird feeling about this.

Can’t you get the matter in front of a judge for him to decide? Any opinions?

if you have to be “married” in order to be “divorced” then the pre-uptial agreement might be a rather good thing.

31

Are pre-nups valid in Taiwan? If you can be considered married after just a banquet, then something tells me that a pre-nup won’t be worth very much, especially since the “pre-” has already come and gone. In the eyes of the law, you are married. I don’t know how thick the case law is for this, but I have definitely heard of Taiwanese couples in the same position.

I don’t know if this pre-nup stuff is such a good idea. I would try to find out if it would be valid before bringing it up with your, urm, wife. I’m not necessarily implying that she would screw you if you brought it up with her, but if you are going to run the risk of causing tension, you’d at least better get some legal advice as to whether such an agreement would have any validity. Even if a pre-nup weren’t recognized in Taiwan, there is no way anybody could get at any funds or future earnings of yours in NZ. Any ruling that a Taiwan court were to make on it would probably end up unenforceable in NZ, especially considering the circumstances of your “wedding.”

32

In the end, it’s not about me doing anything for my own sake. I could easily walk away and tell the world (in all good conscience too) that I’m not married and never was. I think anyone would have a heck of a time trying to prove anything to the contrary – particularly in NZ, which is where I’ll most likely marry in the future. Moreover, I can’t think of any reason why someone might want to force the issue through Taiwan’s courts and bureaucracy and then force it through NZ’s courts. In the absence of any signature from me, and with me taking appropriate steps to block any legal action at every available opportunity, it would take more time and money than most people have at their disposal. And what would the point be anyway? To force me to file for divorce and hand over half of my assets? (That would be about negative $2000 USD at the moment!)

No, the only thing that motivates me to take any action whatsoever is the moral responsibility to clean up the mess I’ve made for my ex-fiancee. If she genuinely is going to run into some kind of legal trouble if she tries to marry in Taiwan again, then I guess I’d be real a cad to just cut the rope on her.

I just had a hope (it’s fading fast) there would be some way to take care of things legally without having to register the marriage. Who knows what further nasty suprises Taiwan’s legal system could throw up if you register a marriage there for the purposes of obtaining an official divorce document? (If you happen to know of any, I’d like to hear about them!)

33

I can’t really see you made a mess of anything Abram. You had an engagement party which was turned into a wedding by the other half and against your wishes. Now, you are caught up in some troubles, you did not have any reason to expect.

It’s quite obvious to all here that you have been in contact with a few lawyers… Were they found by you, or by somebody else? There must be other lawyers out there, and if you get the right interpretation, then you should be OK. Try to get in touch with The Magnificent Tigerman and ask if he knows somebody.

Well, how do you prove that you have been married? The common belief here is that you are married if you have a marriage banquet, and even though the law may state that a marriage license is needed, then a lawyer and a judge might interpret based on traditional customs rather than what the law states.

Every time I am asked to proof that I am married, the local authorities want a marriage license at least, and a copy of the household registration is often also needed. Moreover, when I aplied for my residence visa, they also wanted proof that the Danish government recognized the marriage. Without papers, you will have a hard time to prove anything.

My advice would be only to register the “marriage” if all other posible avenues turned out as duds.

34

You want to do the right thing, but might there not be some nasty, hitherto unforseen, consequences of being divorced, that you may as well do without?

I say keep it as simple as possible.

So first see if you can get a legal ruling somehow that the two of you were never married.

If that doesn’t work, try and get the marriage anulled. Most countries have a legal thing called ‘anullment’. Could even be becasue the marriage was never consummated or something. If Taiwan has the same, go for that over divorce.

Brian

35

I’ve just sat down and gone through all the NZ legislation about marriage that applies to this situation.
Unfortunately its seems I can’t apply to have a marriage annulled that was solemnised outside New Zealand. (EDIT: I’ve found that I may be able to, after all. I misread an all important “or” as an “and” which makes all the difference.)
There is a possibility of getting a court ruling declaring the marriage invalid under New Zealand law, but I’m guessing that the court will say that it’s outside their jurisdiction to rule on a the validity of a marriage conducted in Taiwan. Still, one lives in hope. As you say, Bu Lai En, that would be the best outcome – get a legal ruling that we were never married.
I’m told Taiwan doesn’t do annulments, so I guess that a ruling in NZ is my last hope before going down the registration/divorce track in Taiwan. From what I’ve heard (davis’ experience and others’) I haven’t got a snowball’s chance in h*ll of getting a Taiwanese judge to rule that there was no marriage.

36

Abram, next time you set foot in Taiwan in order to clear the matter up, try this… Ask your former fiancee to go with you to the household registration office and ask to be entered as a spouse on her household registration. If they tell you that you are not married, then you are not married. Ask Richard how to get a written refusal out of them, and then file an administrative complaint. If you lose that, you can take the matter to court, and most likely lose again. You will then have a judge’s word that you are not married.

I am serious about this. It might work.

Actually you should PM Richard Hartzell about it now.

37

That really appeals to me. It seems the most honest approach of any I’ve heard so far. Force the system to admit the truth: we aren’t actually married!!!

If I was in Taiwan, had lots of time and money, and spoke Chinese, I’d definitely give that a shot. As it is, I’m temporarily broke, employed full-time in New Zealand, and still struggling to say, “Where is the bus station?” in Mandarin. (I might suggest it to my ex-fiancee, though. She could give it a try next time she’s in Taiwan.)

I have a feeling, however, that if I go to get entered as the spouse at the local HRO, they (noticing the absence of necessary paperwork) will simply hand me the “register-a-marriage” form and look on in confusion as I suddenly become extremely reluctant to sign anything. (Ah… but then the lack of a “certificate of singleness” might come to my rescue…)

In the end, I’ll be trying not to return to Taiwan. My ex-fiance has a lot of cousins who may be rather upset with me at the moment…

(The only thing that would attract me to Taiwan at the moment is the proposed Forumosan KTV night!)

38

I’ve been reading the Civil Code of Taiwan; in particular the parts concerning marriage. Apparently there is provision for annulment in Taiwan, but I’m in doubt as to whether I would qualify.

http://law.moj.gov.tw/Eng/Fnews/FnewsContent.asp?msgid=740&msgType=en&keyword=Marriage

The articles of this section of the Civil Code that seem relevant to my situation are:
976, 977,978,979 (I didn’t know that there were legal obligations resulting from getting engaged in Taiwan)
982 (this is the key one for me: are non-registered presumed non-married? what constitutes a ceremony?)
988, 997 (these are the only grounds on which I could argue this “marriage” to be void: a. there was no ceremony and no registration; or b. I was “married” by fraud – although I actually do believe my ex-fiancee was acting in good faith)
999 (between this and/or the betrothal laws, I see that there are inescapable financial responsibilities resulting from this situation)

39

Article 982 states: Persons who have registered for marriage in accordance with the Household Registration Act shall be presumed as married.

Have you done so?

(No)

Article 982 states:“A marriage must be celebrated by open ceremony and in the presence of two or more witnesses.”

The whitnesses were there and they assumed that you were married. Open ceremony… I remember mine, there was a judge, and we bowed, and then we were married. You can also chop a marriage license bought in a stationary shop.

Article 988 says:
A marriage is void in any of the following cases:
(1) Where it dose not conform to the form provided by Article 982.
(2) Where it violates the marriage prohibition as provided in Article 983 or Article 985.

If you fail to register it even after an earnest try, then well… the first condition will mean that your marriage is void.

I start to believe that you have a chance, if you try to register it and is refused. I actually think that the sticking point is to register it.

I remember getting married here. Certificates for this and that stamped here there and everywhere… if I could have got all the paperwork sorted out by having a banquet, then… Much fucking easier, I tell you. (We had a banquet, but that was after the registration)

40

[quote=“abram”][quote=“Jive Turkey”]
Abram, what exactly did everyone call your Taiwan banquet? A lot of people have engagement banquets in Taiwan, HK and China. They are usually small affairs that only involve family and a few close friends.

Were you told that this banquet was an engagement banquet? If so, I see no reason why a court would decide that you are married. What exactly happened at this banquet? Practices vary, but most wedding banquets follow similar customs and rituals. Were red envelopes received? Was candy, etc., handed out at the door as guests left? How was the venue decorated? Are there witness who are attesting that it was a “wedding banquet” or a banquet to recognize a wedding? What are they offering as “proof?”

There are plenty of us here who’ve married Taiwanese or Chinese people. How did you feel about your wedding(s)?[/quote]

You ask some good questions…I’ll try to answer them.

I wanted it made clear to everyone that it was a reception to celebrate the upcoming wedding, but my then-fiancee wanted it to resemble a Chinese wedding to all on-lookers. I remember us having a bit of a heated discussion of this when I first heard she wanted this, as we’d clearly agreed the wedding was to be in NZ later on. In the end, however, I think it was touted as a wedding in the Chinese written on the invites, although I made sure that the English translation could be read both ways.

We didn’t call it an engagement banquet – it was supposed to be like a wedding reception, only before the wedding rather than after it. A bit weird, but the idea was to save her rellies the expense of travelling to NZ for the real deal. A bit naive of me in hindsight.

Red envelopes were received (they’ll be returned in due course) and candy was given out as the guests left. The decorations were flowery-tacky-wedding-style. I guess every “witness” there thought “wedding”, even though I certainly wasn’t – apparently the absence of a ceremony didn’t disconcert anyone. She was dressed in bridal attire, there was a processional played as we walked in, we lit a few candles on the head table. I and a kiwi friend of mine gave speeches. We ate. We toasted the guests at each table. We left. That was it. If there was a ceremony of marriage somewhere in there I’m afraid that I didn’t spot it. (I’ve got it all on videotape.)

I can’t say how I feel about my wedding, as I don’t feel like I’ve had one yet. If that truly was a wedding then I’m feeling horribly cheated. Not by my ex-fiancee (she says she didn’t know the legalities), but by Taiwan’s crap legal system.[/quote]

I’m sorry abram but you’re married … Taiwanese style. Not knowing the intentions of either of you, it could’ve been a (painful) innocent mistake or it was a carefully laid trap for you.

Sorry I don’t have any constructive comments to help you extract yourself out of the situation at this time. Most people here have given good ideas of how to work the system and get yourself the right result.

GL,