No place like Taiwan for offshore wind power?

Chernobyll, Japan accidents - this one is hair rsianing and should be viewwed with care Hisashi Ouchi, the Victim of Fatal Radiation Kept Alive for 83 Days

We have already reached capacity in terms of storage, no more after 2016
https://teia.tw/en/content/10924

But the last time the government chose a dumping site, its actions were deemed deceitful. From 1982 to 1996, about 100,000 barrels of nuclear waste were stored at a facility off Taiwan’s southeast coast on Lanyu Island. Prior consent was not sought from Lanyu’s aboriginal residents, and no notice was given to them of the nuclear waste stored there.
Originally, the plan was to dispose of the toxic radioactive material in a nearby ocean trench, but this idea was abandoned when dumping nuclear waste in the ocean was prohibited by international agreement after 1993.

After years of protests, the government promised 12 years ago that the radioactive waste will be removed from Lanyu as soon as a permanent storage facility is available. To date, the government has not honored this promise.

About 20,000 bundles of fuel rods have been used by the nation’s three nuclear power plants to date, and existing storage facilities are already full and sealed off, he said, adding that Taiwan is not suitable for nuclear power as there is insufficient land to properly handle nuclear waste.

The tsunami and resultant disaster at Japan’s Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear power plant in 2011 forced the evacuation of people living within a 250km radius of the plant, he said.

If a similar disaster were to occur at the Jinshan plant, it would require a 1,000km-radius evacuation, given the amount of fuel rods stored at the plant, he said.

But we are in good company: US has a similar problem.

Because no permanent repository for spent fuel exists in the United States, reactor owners have kept spent fuel at the reactor sites. As the amount of spent fuel has increased, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission has authorized many power plant owners to increase the amount in their storage pools to as much as five times what they were designed to hold. As a result, virtually all U.S. spent fuel pools have been “re-racked” to hold spent fuel assemblies at densities that approach those in reactor cores. In order to prevent the spent fuel from going critical, the spent fuel assemblies are placed in metal boxes whose walls contain neutron-absorbing boron.

What are the risks and vulnerabilities?

If a malfunction, a natural disaster, or a terrorist attack causes the water to leak from the pool or the cooling system to stop working, the rods will begin to heat the remaining water in the pool, eventually causing it to boil and evaporate. If the water that leaks or boils away cannot be replenished quickly enough, the water level will drop, exposing the fuel rods.

Once the fuel is uncovered, it could become hot enough to cause the metal cladding encasing the uranium fuel to rupture and catch fire, which in turn could further heat up the fuel until it suffers damage. Such an event could release large amounts of radioactive substances, such as cesium-137, into the environment.

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Of course there are risks. No one denies that there are risks. The risks have proven to be very small.

Estimates of deaths associated with the evacuation range up above 1000, but it’s important to recognize that a HUGE portion of those deaths are associated with the Japanese gov’t maintaining a prolonged lengthy evacuation period…when it wasn’t necessary.

By October 2012, over 1000 disaster-related deaths that were not due to radiation-induced damage or to the earthquake or to the tsunami had been identified by the Reconstruction Agency < Reconstruction Agency>, based on data for areas evacuated for no other reason than the nuclear accident. About 90% of deaths were for persons above 66 years of age. Of these, about 70% occurred within the first three months of the evacuations. (A similar number of deaths occurred among evacuees from tsunami- and earthquake-affected prefectures. These figures are additional to the 19,000 that died in the actual tsunami.)

The premature deaths reported in 2012 were mainly related to the following: (1) somatic effects and spiritual fatigue brought on by having to reside in shelters; (2) Transfer trauma – the mental or physical burden of the forced move from their homes for fragile individuals; and (3) delays in obtaining needed medical support because of the enormous destruction caused by the earthquake and tsunami. However, the radiation levels in most of the evacuated areas were not greater than the natural radiation levels in high background areas elsewhere in the world where no adverse health effect is evident, so maintaining the evacuation beyond a precautionary few days was evidently the main disaster in relation to human fatalities.

Anyway… I’m sure we wont come to an agreement here. Fear of nuclear power continues to baffle me. Yes, you can dig up a bunch of scary sounding articles talking about Lanyu and spent fuel rod storage, but the fact of the matter is that history has shown us that these things are nowhere near as deadly as once believed. We are quite good at making sure people aren’t exposed to deadly amounts of radiation.

Look at Lanyu for example. It’s low-level nuclear waste. It’s glorified trash. You could pitch a tent on the grounds and sleep there for weeks with no lasting issues. Workers at low-level waste sites don’t wear hazmat suits or anything… It’s just trash that is a bit above background radiation levels. There’s no evidence that anyone has ever been harmed by low-level nuclear waste containment.

But be sure to recognize that as we quibble about whether or not there were a few deaths here and there that can be associated with nuclear waste disposal, in the meantime millions of people die every year from fossil fuels.

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When the fukishima issue happened everyone worldwide was worried if it couldnt be contained. That is a danger aspect. It was more or less. And now the safe nuclear option has only contaminated all of Japan. We lived in japan, going to various cities such as Gunma, Shizioka, Oita, Osaka and a few others regarding their agriculture industry. Gunma hit me hard as they had hazmat guys coming every 3 months testing crops, soil, insects etc. All testing exceedingly high. Now i could perhaps agree fukishima didnt kill those people out right on the day it happened, but i liken it to drug abuse such as tobacco. It wont kill you today, but is there any dispute it wont give you cancer and end your life prematurely? Other izsues such as contaminated food entering taiwan from japan. It was big news until people got lazy and forgot.

I guess in the end we need to adk ourselves.

Would you live in that area now?

Would you eat food knowing its from that region?

Dont answer here as itnhas no meaning due to bias and face, but in your own mind think of those 2 questions. If the answer is no to either, thennyour realise its unsafe.

By me saying nuclear is unsafe in no waybimplies im saying cpal and oil is good. Its a mute point. They are all shit. We arent cavemen, we have smart people and we have financial means to put ideas into action. This is the issue. Using the thousand year old excuse " ya but its not as bad as____" is pretty much the definition of idiocy.

We have great technology, every single one has flaws. Killing 5 birds in wind farms seems silly. Giving the entire country tumors, cancers and whatevert else for 100s of years if we fuck up is not a long term sollution. Endig nuclear in a decade is smart. It creates incentives and motivation to promote better technologies…whay dint we want to advance, evolve and become cleaner? Its a no brainer. Problem is people seem to have no brains. At least the common joe. Clean and risk free is the end goal. If wind reduces piwer use 10 percent, great. Is a step. Taiwan is rich as hell and has the capabilities to do this so easily. With a large population of productive people relative to land mass its even easier here than most countries. Its a corruption and lack of will that stpps here. But we dont need to folliw suit with idiots.

Contaminated all of Japan? What world do you live in? Japan is fine.

Yes

Yes

I’m not scared of boogiemen. I actually pay attention to science and measurements. The radiation levels in the Fukushima prefecture, outside of a few easily quarantined hotspots, is well below the natural background radiation levels of many areas of the world. Those areas have never shown to have adverse radiation effects from living there… so yeah, I wouldn’t hesitate for a second to live in that area if I had a reason to live there.

One farm could have 10 or more of large turbines.

Fair enough. 5 times 10 is 50 birds. Make a thousand you get 50000 dead birds. Thats less than a day at kfc, or a year on a few acre adzuki bean farm in taiwan. The same argument is made for say hydroelectric dams in north america about fish. Which to be fair has a far larger death toll than wind farms. But ya, wind farms killing a few thousand birds per year for sure vs niclear disasters every fifty years mutating billions of organisms for multiple generations…i guess one needs to choose.

I lived in japan. Saw their food, met their families. Im saying no to both questions. I suppose if people want to move there and deal with that realityb its their choice and whats done is done. But we should be smart enough to prevent clean areas reaching that state.

Not sure if taiwan guy is just playing devs advocate, but lets use tobacco as a good example. Its hard to prove today. Its easier to prove over 50 years. Lets be more diligent and not wait 50 years as the signs are showing up now already. Why wait?

I get coal is bad and in our face now. No question. It should be phased out as well. But frankly pilb coal and nuclear should all be phased out. For different reasons sureb but all have real life risks seen now and with historical data. If japans mess up is too fresh to think about, there are previous disasters.

I am not playing devils advocate. I am making judgements based on science, research and statistics instead of spooky feelings about radiation. I have already stated the facts. You have not stated anything except your feelings.

http://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/safety-and-security/safety-of-plants/fukushima-accident.aspx

Read up. This report has a ton of measurements, statistics and information about the reality of Fukushima. Radiation isn’t some mysterious unquantifiable substance. It’s measurable and predictable.

What previous disasters? Chernobyl and Fukushima are pretty much the only nuclear power production-related incidents with any large scale human/environmental effects. Chernobyl was the result of a technology in its infancy being managed by a corrupt and financially broke regime trying to outpace its geopolitical rivals. Fukushima was an extremely unlikely event that resulted from a perfect storm of circumstances… and was still controlled to the point that most experts believe there will not be a statistically observable increase in human fatalities.

Flying in a plane frequently makes your body take up more radiation than any nuclear power plant. And when it drops out of the sky it kills a few hundred people in one go.

Definition for Taipower’s low-level waste is actually different from the international standard. In Finland’s Onkalo permanent storage for example, there are low-level, intermidiate-level and high-level wastes.

image

High-level is spent fuel

Mid-level is resins, chemical sludge and metal nuclear fuel cladding.

Low level is paper, rags, tools, clothing, filters, and other materials which contain small amounts of mostly short-lived radioactivity.

According to this PTS documentary, there is no mid-level waste class in Taiwan. Instead, the so called low-level waste would encompass Finland’s low and intermediate-level wastes in Taipower’s definition.

So in reality, Lanyu has both low and mid-level wastes dumped there in poor condition without local consent. Also, Lanyu is geologically a terrible place for storage.

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I would like to see some evidence of that.

Every news article that I’ve ever read states that Lanyu is used to store low-level waste and every picture that I’ve ever seen of the site shows workers moving barrels or containers while wearing nothing more than civilian clothing. No hazmat suits or anything.

Radiation readings were only 3.6 roentgen, the equivalent of a chest X-ray.

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Yeah, and there’s a recommended limit to how frequently you should get a chest X-ray, yet if you live in Lanyu, especially near the Dongqing region, you would be getting chest X-rays 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

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From the Atomic Energy Council:

Selection_130

Taiwan only has two class of nuclear wastes, and the so called low-level includes resins, chemical sludge and metal nuclear fuel cladding, which would be classified as mid-level nuclear waste according to international standards.

Why do people move mid-level wastes wearing regular shirts? Chabudou I guess? And that’s the core of the issue of having nuclear power in Taiwan.

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Thank you

I would assume it’s because the radiation levels of the materials they are handling are not at dangerous levels.

https://taiwantoday.tw/news.php?unit=10&post=19724

It’s not hard to measure radiation you know… You just get a device and go use it. Readings around the island and even right at the storage site are well within safe levels. They aren’t even above typical background levels. It’s a non-issue.

This assumption that the Taiwanese are unusually willing to throw their people into deadly radiation is absurd. Get real…

By the way, that test above was done because some Japanese “scientists” (read: activists, they were anthropologists, not nuclear engineers or physicists) reported readings 500 times above background levels and made a fuss about it. The AEC then invited those same “scientists” back along with nuclear and radiation specialists from Taiwan and Japan to conduct readings…and they found that the numbers were actually not even above background levels.

I would strongly argue that the psychological and emotional damage done by crazy lying activists does far more harm to the people on Lanyu than that barely radioactive waste ever has.

So we can put you down for two barrels of Lanyu waist for your back yard?

I’m not really pro or anti nuclear energy, my opinion drifts depending on what I read. I haven’t really looked into it enough above what I learned at school.

But I think the point here is they came and dumped it without disclosing what it was, and when people found out they weren’t happy, understandably and that want it gone.

Sure… And that’s a valid criticism. “This stuff is dangerous” is not. It is being stored safely and properly. There’s absolutely no health concerns.

Intermediate-level waste (ILW) contains higher amounts of radioactivity and in general require shielding, but not cooling.

Also, just because they are stored away doesn’t mean ILW will be safe. The chemical and biological processes within containers would generate hydrogen and methane which can then destroy the containment. That’s why it is crucial to choose a geologically appropriate storage site safe from any water. Lanyu unfortunately isn’t that kinda place. Intermediate waste has the same half life as spent fuel, where as LLW are supposed to have shorter half life (a few hundred years).

Assuming you are right about LLW and ILW, that still leaves HLW such as spend fuel which can’t be properly stored in Taiwan.

Can I push you to 3 barrels and I will throw in a free geiger counter?

If I keep this up I’ll soon have these barrels gone, take note Taiwan Government :wink:

Sure…I agree. Just because they are stored away doesn’t mean ILW will be safe, but I’m pretty sure that the scientists and engineers who are in charge of dealing with this stuff understand far better than you and I which materials can be stored safely on Lanyu and which materials need to be kept at the plant under shielded conditions. The page that you posted from the AEC specifically says that some of the ILW is sent to Lanyu while the rest is kept on site.

My evidence that this is being properly handled is the fact that radiation levels at the storage site on Lanyu are extremely low.

It can be properly stored in Taiwan. It just requires more management and upkeep than would be ideal. It would be nice to have a permanent storage facility like the one in Finland that is featured in the documentary you posted. Unfortunately, that hasn’t happened yet… But in the meantime, the HLW is being kept safely on site according to international safety regulations in facilities that have superior safety systems to the ones utilized in the outdated Fukushima plant. If Taiwan happened to experience a 9.0 earthquake with a massive tsunami like the one in Fukushima, we wouldn’t encounter the problems that they did.