Oh, I could’ve gotten a US passport years and years ago. I just choose not to. Visiting Taiwan would be easier though, but then I couldn’t take advantage of the PRC national line when I go back to “China”. =) Actually my father-in-law is on his way back to Taiwan, and he’s planning to investigate exactly what will be needed for me to make it out there.
But at least now I know if I’m ever implicated in a major case of embezzlement, I’ll run to the United States… where my wife will (hopefully) manage to bail me out!
Actually you might want to check out Canada as a safe haven for rich Chinese expats on the lam.
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Yea, don’t get me started on Canada. The self-righteous hypocrisy angers me to no end.
I appreciate the good-natured efforts of some to engage the Chinese government on human rights. I think that’s an important discussion to have, and the PRC government does need to improve. On the other hand, if you are really concerned about the lives of the Chinese… how about arresting some of the known embezzlers that have stolen from all of us, and extraditing them back to China?
Every single one should be exterminated. I for one support China’s use of capital punishment for economic crimes.
[quote] does mainland china include hainan, hong kong and macau? what use is the term mainland then if not to signify the part of china that is not an island? taiwan is not a part of china, and has not been since 1895, so we just need to refer to those folks over there as ‘coming from China’. who cares if they come from Macau or HK or hainan instead. use the word mainland only if you do want to talk about Hainan, HK and Macau separately. [quote/]
thank you- you said it best, urodacus. a hypothetical conversation that illustrates the differences: a green or blue businessman from Taiwan says: “I’m going to do a little business on Hainan, but most of my business will be on the mainland.” This sentence does not necessarily imply that Taiwan is included in China’s territory, only that Hainan is. A blue supporter on Taiwan would say: “I think I’ll vacation on the mainland for Chinese New Year’s.” This implies that Taiwan is a part of China. A green supporter on Taiwan would say: “I think I’ll vacation in China for Chinese New Year’s.” This implies that Taiwan and China are separate countries. As Urodacus posted, ‘mainland China’ is a useful term to use when distinguishing between mainland China and the Chinese islands. If you are a green, you simply don’t include Taiwan as one of those islands- but you do include Hainan, Macau, HK.
CCTang, why after going to a US middle school and high school did you not choose to get US citizenship? Did you ever have US citizenship, were you an illegal immigrant, or did you just have a green card? Was your decision to not become/give up being a US citizen based on Chinese patriotism, some kind of convenience, or a little of both? Does the PRC have compulsory military service like Taiwan? If so, did you have to serve, or how did you get out of it? (my husband just said 'bu2bi4). If China and the US were to go to war (either initiated by the US or the PRC), would you serve in the PRC military as a proud Chinese patriot? I know you hate hypocrisy, intellectual dishonesty and such, and I know you have shown yourself in the past to have intellectual courage, so I’m anxious to hear your answer. Actually, since your government gives you no say in the running of your country, I would not look down at you for ducking a war on Chinese soil. BTW, if your wife has brothers, did they serve in the Taiwan military? I think being a patriot involves more than just building things and making money. It involves more than fighting in a war. It means actively being involved in the democratic process so that you have a voice in what the government spends money on to build and who the government spends lives on to fight. Oops! Sorry. You don’t have that avenue open to you. And sorry for me- we don’t have enough patriots in the US taking advantage of the power they have to change what they don’t like.
What a long-winded set of questions, but since I opened the door by discussing myself in the first place, I’ll at least respond briefly.
No, I’m not an illegal immigrant. I made the choice to remain a Chinese national by choice. It’s partly patriotism, and it’s partly convenience. (Although, as others have pointed out, traveling to anywhere but “China”… even Hong Kong and Taiwan… would be far easier on a US passport.)
It’s certainly not due to fear of anything. I believe by Chinese law there is compulsory military service, but with 1.3 billion people to “compel” into service, no one has ever been compelled into anything. The PRC military has been a volunteer-only force for as long as I know. My wife has one brother, and he’s not of legal age. I have no idea whether he’ll serve in the ROC military. I don’t speak for him, so you’ll have to ask him how he feels and what he plans.
What would I do in a US/China war? The last person to pose that hypothetical to me was probably 12. The answer remains the same: it really depends on the cause. Nations don’t get into wars because they’re bored; they fight for other reasons. I want to know what the reasons are, and what the threats are. I think this is the kind of logic most adults understand, no matter what country they’re from.
Even if the cause is truly worthy, I’m not sure patriotism is the same thing as picking up a gun. Sun Yat-sen never did, and I know he was a far greater patriot than I’ll ever be. I’m not a cartoon teenager bragging about all the great thigns I can do. I’m an adult man, and I know my limitations, my capabilities, and my responsibilities. I take all of those seriously.
PS. What are you (and the Forumosans) going to do if Taiwan and the United States fight a war?
[quote=“cctang”]Yes, I can’t wait for urodacus’s convenient know-it-all classification of what I am.
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i don’t know it all, but i do know a lot and i am more than happy to share.
and i don’t know nor have ever met you, so i can’t really judge beyond the face you present on forumosa. but based on that much, does the phrase “fifth column” mean anything to you?
hopefully i won’t be here when the war does break out. maybe somewhere safer like NZ.
If the US and Taiwan fight a war, i’m gonna watch CNN and eat popcorn. I’d pay good money to see that. Best part is when they identify a cho do fu restaurant as a WMD facility.
[quote=“urodacus”]and i don’t know nor have ever met you, so i can’t really judge beyond the face you present on forumosa. but based on that much, does the phrase “fifth column” mean anything to you?
hopefully i won’t be here when the war does break out. maybe somewhere safer like NZ.[/quote]
Haven’t you heard? First Taiwan, and then the rest of the Pacific.
“Fifth column”? Rather heavy praise. I’m just here to make money and live my life. Are you also a member of the NZ fifth column placed in Taiwan?
CCTang, you are a sunshine Chinese patriot. When the going gets tough in YOUR country, you can always ride it out in the comfort of MY country- just as you are doing now, making money and living your life, fighting your battles wielding your mighty fingers on the keyboard. Don’t kid yourself; know your limitations.
What would I do if the US fights a war with Taiwan? Weird question. If China fights a war with Taiwan and the US goes in to help I’ll probably be busy evacuating family to my house in the US. My 18 year old nephew will be busy fighting the Chinese as a Marine, any maybe I’ll volunteer my rudimentary Chinese language skills to help in whatever way I could. If my daughters got drafted, I would go into Taiwan/China with them as a volunteer. Before any war broke out, I would do my best as a citizen working with other citizens to prevent it, but if I couldn’t, and it was a just war, I would get involved actively. As for not picking up a gun- that’s sort of a strange thing for you to say since you support what Mao said about power coming from the barrel of a gun and since you want China to be strong militarily. Have you suddenly become a pacifist? If I were in Europe and someone started attacking my country, I’d make sure my children and older relatives were safe and then I would fight. The only reason I can exist on this earth is because the Allied forces went in and fought the Nazis allowing my mother to survive WWII (which my grandfather fought in). Maybe all these years in the US have weakened your bond for China more than your realized- if people/family/friends are dying in your country- you go back and help and put yourself in harm’s way. No equivocating about it. But one does get used to the good life…
the muse is with me -
this was intendended to foster discussion
and push tang’s button.
double score!!
some are looking through the wrong end of the telescope.
go back to the op.
my intent is to remove the politcal histrionics from the vernacular.
subterfuge is by definition a trick.
tang - how do you pronounce zealot?
A zealot? Hmm… maybe someone that believes the vernacular must be changed if it conflicts with his political perspective? It seems to me you and v are rather concerned about using the proper NewSpeak terminology for the nations of China and Taiwan, in order to eliminate the risk of committing a thoughtcrime. I’m sure you will do an excellent job in making sure your students are goodthinkers.
I don’t have an allergic reaction from referring to Taiwan as a “nation”, or mainland China as China. Look, I just did it again. If I want to make a statement about the cross-strait political situation… I’ll do it clearly using words.
Just how old are you, v? (I ask that rhetorical question for more than one reason.)
And in all those years you’ve been on this planet, precisely how many wars have you fought on behalf of “your country”? The US military could use every patriotic volunteer it can find, right this very moment. And clearly, they have an excellent sample in yourself. Many believe this is a critical juncture for the future of the United States, and 3000 of your countrymen were killed in an act of war 6 years ago; 3000 more have died in Iraq since then. I’m surprised with all of the righteousness and patriotism bursting from your every orifice, you’re wasting time here talking to us instead of defending the American nation.
In contrast… sure I haven’t volunteered for the PLA, but we’re also not currently engaged in a war. PLA soldiers aren’t being killed by snipers and bomb attacks every day; their greatest danger comes from traffic accidents and bad liquor. Chinese cities haven’t been attacked by hostile foreign forces. It’s very interesting that you criticize me for not volunteering to serve in a hypothetical war, even as you sit by idly while your own country is engaged in an actual shooting war. What does that say about you and your so-called “patriotism”?
As far as a war between Taiwan/US, obviously you have your own identity figured out clearly. What advice do you have for Michael Turton, someone who’s blog you seemed to enjoy greatly? His wife is Taiwanese, and his children are being raised in Taiwan. Does he have love for the United States? Would you be shocked to find out he hasn’t given up his American passport for a Taiwanese one?
What advice do you have for all of the other non-Taiwanese posters on this forum? All of the “foreigners” currently living in Taiwan? Why do you suppose the vast majority haven’t applied for a Taiwanese passport, yet?
Just a hypothetical, would you give up your PRC citizenship for a ROC citizenship?[/quote]
I think according to the ROC constitution, I legally still have ROC citizenship. I just happen to be one of the tufei, and therefore have my legal rights restricted.
You pose a really interesting option that I’ve never considered… partly because it’s never been available. Mainland spouses becoming ROC citizens is a difficult process, I’ve heard. And we have to be practical here, too. My extended family/work/house are in the PRC, and have never been to Taiwan… so I don’t know whether a ROC citizenship makes sense. And if the ROC wasn’t on a path to reunification with the PRC, I have zero interest in being a citizen of “Taiwan”.
But if all those problems were solved… that’s really interesting. I think I would seriously consider it.
The other hypothetical is… what will I want for my kids? Uncertain, but my rough plan is to let them choose on their own which of the PRC, ROC, or US passports they’d prefer.
CCTang, I didn’t make myself clear, or maybe, you have forced me to think more clearly- which is the only reason I like to have conversations on this forum- to sharpen my thinking. I’m 42- so I was old enough for the Gulf war and this war (I think the cut-off is 45). I don’t think the Iraq war or the Gulf war are just wars. But maybe there is a hole in my thinking when it came to 911 and attacking Afghanistan- that was just, and I didn’t volunteer. I could say being the mother of young children (9 and 11) played a role in that decision, but I never thought seriously about it either. If I were single, maybe I wouldn’t have considered volunteering… I think I can say, though, that if we were attacked in an ongoing war on American soil, I and all my neighbors would fight. I wouldn’t try to escape, although I would take advantage of my daughter’s Taiwan passport to get her out if Taiwan were safe.
As for Taiwan, when I first went there in 1987, I was an yingwen mishu for the Taiwan EPA. That led me to get involved with the Taiwan environmental movement. But after 1989 when Tiananmen occurred, I had a life changing discussion with a friend who had been in Beijing, had witnessed the protest, and had seen the dead bodies. He said that it was wrong for foreigners to encourage the protesters and then just hop on a plane and leave them and their families to deal with death/injury/jail time. My mother said the same. Then I decided that if I wasn’t totally committed to living in Taiwan, that I shouldn’t actively participate in its politics. I also missed my country too much and couldn’t see myself living in Taiwan permanently. I live in the US now. As for Michael Turton, I encouraged him to write about Taiwan issues as they relate to his home country, the US. He does just that, commenting on American and other western media coverage of Taiwan. That’s showing global love!!! 2 foreigners I know have given up their home country citizenship. The rest would try to escape in the event of a war I think, just like their Taiwanese counterparts, which is why many of the long-timers are passionate about avoiding war and will not just spout off pro-independence stuff like a newbie just discovering Taiwan. I don’t know about Richard Hartzell’s passport status, but way back I argued with him that Americans living in Taiwan should not be advocating Taiwan independence to the masses unless they were willing to stay in Taiwan and take the consequences of a cross-strait war- I think it was one of my first posts here. Foreigners have love for their home countries and love for Taiwan, but to be a true patriot involves working to make your (adopted) country better. A lot of forumosans do that- Brian Kennedy, Eric Lier, - I don’t know all their names. And a lot are living their lives, making money, just like you. A long time ago I made up a little scale for people. There are the negative ones (-1), who actively hurt society; plus ones (+1), who try to leave the world better than they found it; and the zeros (0), who just live their lives and who have minimal impact on anyone outside of their personal circle. I don’t always live up to my ideal, but it is to be on the plus side (not in clothes to head off AC dropout). I don’t think you share that ideal. I think you are happy being a zero. And if everybody in the world were zeros, that would be no problem. The problem is that there are a kiloton of negative ones bopping around. Thank god for that small group of hardcore plus ones (not me) sprinkled around the world past/present/future or we all would be going to hell in a handbasket.
To conclude, I am helping my country by being activelly involved at town level government, and voting to change things above that. My job also has a patriotic bent to it which gives it meaning and keeps me motivated. So maybe I can say you are a sunshine patriot and I am a partly sunny/partly cloudy one. At least I live in the country I love.
CCTang, either the first time I read your post I was too sleepy, or you edited it and made it a lot meaner. ‘Bursting from every orifice’? Why are you so fixated on orifi all the sudden? Since you’ve been back I’ve noticed a change in your prose. A little more, how should I put it? Ewwww. That’s alright. Sometimes I like to write a little on the eww side myself. And it’s funny anyway. I think you should have 3 new year’s resolutions: 1) do something concrete to help your (adopted) country 2) write with more humor (keep those orifi coming!) 3) i was going to say be extra nice to your wife since she is with child- but you are probably doing that anyway.
