This is one of the reasons I had the bonus specified in my contract as 2 months salary minimal.
I’m not sure if the company will give more than that, tho…
I’m sometimes guilty of giving people too much credit. I agree that bringing up a violation is likely to cause problems, but in the other thread with the end-of-contract bonus, that guy was clearly on his way out anyway, and the calculation of the bonus was clearly specified in the contract.
I’m sometimes guilty of giving people too much credit. I agree that bringing up a violation is likely to cause problems, but in the other thread with the end-of-contract bonus, that guy was clearly on his way out anyway, and the calculation of the bonus was clearly specified in the contract.[/quote]
I am fairly certain that you haven’t worked for many (or any) Taiwanese employers based on the credit that you are giving them.
To be fair the guy knows his stuff in the legal area, we can take the free advice under our belt but with the full consideration of the working and cultural norms here. In the end it’s up to the individual if they want to go the legal route but it’s usually the end of your working relationship with a given employer, that’s the same around the world.
We are talking about a working environment where even leaving on time or an hour after time is often severely career limiting and where peers , if any can be found for foreigners in particular, will not exactly have your back. I have known and continue to know many abused workers but the abuse is pretty much baked into the system and normalized, it’s common in Taiwan, Korea and Japan. Japan and Korea are probably worse than Taiwan in terms of long ‘working and socialising’ hours with commuting time thrown in. Chinas working norms are very diverse but certainly the office environment could be better than the aforementioned three countries.
[quote=“headhonchoII”]To be fair the guy knows his stuff in the legal area, we can take the free advice under our belt but with the full consideration of the working and cultural norms here. In the end it’s up to the individual if they want to go the legal route but it’s usually the end of your working relationship with a given employer, that’s the same around the world.
We are talking about a working environment where even leaving on time or an hour after time is often severely career limiting and where peers , if any can be found for foreigners in particular, will not exactly have your back. I have known and continue to know many abused workers but the abuse is pretty much baked into the system and normalized, it’s common in Taiwan, Korea and Japan. Japan and Korea are probably worse than Taiwan in terms of long ‘working and socialising’ hours with commuting time thrown in. Chinas working norms are very diverse but certainly the office environment could be better than the aforementioned three countries.[/quote]
The advice is great but his actual knowledge of the working conditions in Taiwan is awful. I agree that it is the way things should be but it is not even remotely close to the real world.
I’m sometimes guilty of giving people too much credit. I agree that bringing up a violation is likely to cause problems, but in the other thread with the end-of-contract bonus, that guy was clearly on his way out anyway, and the calculation of the bonus was clearly specified in the contract.[/quote]
I am fairly certain that you haven’t worked for many (or any) Taiwanese employers based on the credit that you are giving them.[/quote]
Could we have a show of hands for everyone who was fired but
- didn’t have a reason to be fired anyway,
- didn’t have a contractually fixed minimum bonus anyway, and
- would have left in a few weeks anyway?
Perhaps I should add another condition: 4) wasn’t doing anything the boss knew about and considered blackmailable, like extra work on the side without a work permit. :no-no:
Your suspicion that I’m an impostor is amusing, but I can’t figure out what my motivation is supposed to be to go to all this trouble if I’ve never worked here. 
[quote=“yyy”]
Your suspicion that I’m an impostor is amusing, but I can’t figure out what my motivation is supposed to be to go to all this trouble if I’ve never worked here. [/quote]
You certainly seem clueless on real life working conditions in Taiwan and the ways that employers regularly break all of these rules in the labor laws. For example your belief that Constitution Day (and others) is a paid day off for people in Taiwan. By the letter of the law I guess it should be but I don’t know anyone (Taiwanese or foreign) that gets a paid day off.
This isn’t condoning the breaking of the labor laws but going to the labor board for every infraction is a good way to be the bitter man at the bar bitching about not being able to advance or shuffling through a bunch of shitty jobs. Battles need to be picked strategically.
But some of your information has been quite helpful and eye opening. You provided excellent help (and surprised the hell out of me) getting paid bereavement leave in the one thread. Kudos on that.
[quote=“Abacus”]This isn’t condoning the breaking of the labor laws but going to the labor board for every infraction is a good way to be the bitter man at the bar bitching about not being able to advance or shuffling through a bunch of shitty jobs. Battles need to be picked strategically.
[/quote]
My point in this thread was that if you give the minimum notice, and your bonus is not contractually set, and your boss has no other reason to fire you (and has no dirt with which to blackmail you), suddenly being fired is not very likely.
Imagine being a boss who unexpectedly receives notice from an employee before CNY instead of after (“Those crazy foreigners!”). This already means you can save money on the bonus. Your employee is not threatening you in any way. He’s offering to find a suitable replacement. He’s not pursuing severance pay (and can’t because it’s not an Article 14 termination). He wants that bonus, so he promises to work hard to finish whatever needs to be finished before CNY.
Option 1: Thank him for his service, wish him well, and stiff him on the bonus. He may give an angry rant in a bar (if that’s his thing), but you won’t suffer any loss.
Option 2: Fire him. If he decides to take it lying down, you save a little on his salary, but you suffer the expense and hassle of finding and training a replacement and/or dealing with the lost productivity that results from not finding one within a certain amount of time. Depending on how (un)important he was, you may still come out ahead of option 1. However, if he doesn’t take it lying down, you risk a lawsuit (or arbitration) and repeated visits from the labor inspector. You now have sub-options: forge evidence to justify the termination (potentially getting yourself a criminal record – and these days most written communications are electronic, meaning the employee has extensive records that can’t be forged out of existence), offer a settlement and hope he’ll accept it (so much for saving money), or stonewall him and hope he’ll just disappear. If he doesn’t disappear instantly, in addition to the HR/productivity issues, you now face legal fees and time spent consulting a lawyer that you could have enjoyed doing something else, and if you lose (which you probably will unless the crazy foreigner gives up), you will have to pay severance pay, plus the salary for the notice period, plus a fine of at least $300,000 for stiffing him on severance, plus whatever the fine is for not paying the notice period salary, plus whatever else gets exposed in the process, plus the affair being a matter of public record. (Plus, if you choose arbitration, the arbitrator may award a bonus anyway. If you or the employee chooses court, it’s not inconceivable that a judge would find the opaque nature of the bonus calculation method unacceptable under Article 247-1 of the Civil Code and therefore award a bonus too, though the bonus in itself would make a very unlikely lawsuit.)
I know, not all bosses are clever enough to think option 2 through to all of its possible conclusions, and not all foreigners are clever enough (or stupid enough, or both) to see a lawsuit through to its conclusion, so some would still consider option 2 the best choice. I still think it’s unlikely.
Would you care to share real life stories of option 2 that fit the specific situation this thread was supposed to be about?
[quote=“yyy”][quote=“Abacus”]This isn’t condoning the breaking of the labor laws but going to the labor board for every infraction is a good way to be the bitter man at the bar bitching about not being able to advance or shuffling through a bunch of shitty jobs. Battles need to be picked strategically.
[/quote]
My point in this thread was that if you give the minimum notice, and your bonus is not contractually set, and your boss has no other reason to fire you (and has no dirt with which to blackmail you), suddenly being fired is not very likely.
Imagine being a boss who unexpectedly receives notice from an employee before CNY instead of after (“Those crazy foreigners!”). This already means you can save money on the bonus. Your employee is not threatening you in any way. He’s offering to find a suitable replacement. He’s not pursuing severance pay (and can’t because it’s not an Article 14 termination). He wants that bonus, so he promises to work hard to finish whatever needs to be finished before CNY.
Option 1: Thank him for his service, wish him well, and stiff him on the bonus. He may give an angry rant in a bar (if that’s his thing), but you won’t suffer any loss.
Option 2: Fire him. If he decides to take it lying down, you save a little on his salary, but you suffer the expense and hassle of finding and training a replacement and/or dealing with the lost productivity that results from not finding one within a certain amount of time. Depending on how (un)important he was, you may still come out ahead of option 1. However, if he doesn’t take it lying down, you risk a lawsuit (or arbitration) and repeated visits from the labor inspector. You now have sub-options: forge evidence to justify the termination (potentially getting yourself a criminal record – and these days most written communications are electronic, meaning the employee has extensive records that can’t be forged out of existence), offer a settlement and hope he’ll accept it (so much for saving money), or stonewall him and hope he’ll just disappear. If he doesn’t disappear instantly, in addition to the HR/productivity issues, you now face legal fees and time spent consulting a lawyer that you could have enjoyed doing something else, and if you lose (which you probably will unless the crazy foreigner gives up), you will have to pay severance pay, plus the salary for the notice period, plus a fine of at least $300,000 for stiffing him on severance, plus whatever the fine is for not paying the notice period salary, plus whatever else gets exposed in the process, plus the affair being a matter of public record. (Plus, if you choose arbitration, the arbitrator may award a bonus anyway. If you or the employee chooses court, it’s not inconceivable that a judge would find the opaque nature of the bonus calculation method unacceptable under Article 247-1 of the Civil Code and therefore award a bonus too, though the bonus in itself would make a very unlikely lawsuit.)
I know, not all bosses are clever enough to think option 2 through to all of its possible conclusions, and not all foreigners are clever enough (or stupid enough, or both) to see a lawsuit through to its conclusion, so some would still consider option 2 the best choice. I still think it’s unlikely.
Would you care to share real life stories of option 2 that fit the specific situation this thread was supposed to be about?[/quote]
Here is one from a year ago. Is that real life enough? 30 days notice = fired! It is pretty clear that you started following this board < 1 year ago because otherwise you would have been all over that.
You continue to act like this stuff doesn’t happen regularly in Taiwan. You continue to dodge the question of whether or not you have ever worked in a standard Taiwanese business or buxiban. You continue to show that you have no idea what the working environment is like at all in Taiwan. I think you live in Taiwan. I think you work in Taiwan but most likely freelancing or perhaps on an expat package. I highly doubt you work for Taiwanese manager.
[quote]My point in this thread was that if you give the minimum notice, and your bonus is not contractually set, and your boss has no other reason to fire you (and has no dirt with which to blackmail you), suddenly being fired is not very likely.[/quote]
This for me is a big red flag, like matador at the bullring size. “suddenly being fired is not very likely”… very likely at a Taiwanese enterprise? I’d laugh at that statement if it wasn’t so painful, so close to home.
No, they do not care about training nor having trained people. They care about bottom line, hiring experienced people means they will save by hiring newbie at half salary. What’s to lose? Productivity here is defined by working until 9, 10, 11 pm. The saying of putting the mosquito through the colander and swallowing the camel applies perfectly to the Taiwanese workplace.
That said, I do also appreciate the law links. maybe I will finish reading by new year, but there is a new labor law in place since January 1st, so that is the one we must be looking at.
Here is one from a year ago. Is that real life enough? 30 days notice = fired! It is pretty clear that you started following this board < 1 year ago because otherwise you would have been all over that.
You continue to act like this stuff doesn’t happen regularly in Taiwan. You continue to dodge the question of whether or not you have ever worked in a standard Taiwanese business or buxiban. You continue to show that you have no idea what the working environment is like at all in Taiwan. I think you live in Taiwan. I think you work in Taiwan but most likely freelancing or perhaps on an expat package. I highly doubt you work for Taiwanese manager.[/quote]
I did answer affirmatively in another thread, when I mentioned that I had received holiday pay for both Oct 31 and Dec 25 (which were still LSA holidays at the time), though not without struggle.
The thread linked gives almost no information in the OP, and there was no follow-up. Strider may have had a legitimate grievance but chosen not to pursue it, or he may have accepted a settlement. On the other hand, it may have been a legitimate Article 12 termination. If he had no reason to be fired (i.e. no Article 12 reason), he could claim the notice period salary plus severance pay. (That would be the Article 16 notice period, shorter than 30 days unless he had worked there for several years.)
If it was a buxiban as you suggested (but the OP didn’t say), the boss probably didn’t want to risk losing the replacement by making him/her wait a month before starting. Strider may not have known that bonuses are even supposed to exist.
[quote=“Icon”]No, they do not care about training nor having trained people. They care about bottom line, hiring experienced people means they will save by hiring newbie at half salary. What’s to lose? Productivity here is defined by working until 9, 10, 11 pm. The saying of putting the mosquito through the colander and swallowing the camel applies perfectly to the Taiwanese workplace.
That said, I do also appreciate the law links. maybe I will finish reading by new year, but there is a new labor law in place since January 1st, so that is the one we must be looking at.[/quote]
It depends on the job and the company. In some contexts, you’re right. In others, longer hours can’t increase productivity. In a buxiban, even if there isn’t a strict training system, there’s still the problem that changing teachers frequently can make clients unhappy. And there are companies that truly care about quality, but I won’t argue about their market share… 
Anyway, the new (Dec 16) LSA is the same as the old (Jul 1) version except for three new articles and two amended ones. Art. 9-1 addresses non-competition clauses (same as what the MOL already said about them), Art. 10-1 addresses transferring employees (a transfer can’t be used as an excuse to lower the salary etc.), Art. 15-1 addresses minimum service periods, and amended Art. 44 & 46 address minors. These changes are in addition to the previous amendments that didn’t come into effect until Jan 1, mainly the 40 hour work week (Art. 30) and the reduction of holidays (Art. 23 of the Enforcement Rules).
Explanation of the Dec 16 amendments: mol.gov.tw/announcement/2099/24198/
The MOJ doesn’t have the new translations up yet, but the MOL has the Dec 9 ER amendments translated here: laws.mol.gov.tw/ENG/EngContent.a … 2&KeyWord=
yyy there’s also Option 3: no firing, no bonus either. That’s the one you are gong to see happening.
[quote=“Icon”][quote]My point in this thread was that if you give the minimum notice, and your bonus is not contractually set, and your boss has no other reason to fire you (and has no dirt with which to blackmail you), suddenly being fired is not very likely.[/quote]
This for me is a big red flag, like matador at the bullring size. “suddenly being fired is not very likely”… very likely at a Taiwanese enterprise? I’d laugh at that statement if it wasn’t so painful, so close to home.
No, they do not care about training nor having trained people. They care about bottom line, hiring experienced people means they will save by hiring newbie at half salary. What’s to lose? Productivity here is defined by working until 9, 10, 11 pm. The saying of putting the mosquito through the colander and swallowing the camel applies perfectly to the Taiwanese workplace.
That said, I do also appreciate the law links. maybe I will finish reading by new year, but there is a new labor law in place since January 1st, so that is the one we must be looking at.[/quote][/quote]
Bosses here will fire people especially if they rock the boat in terms of remuneration or working hours. Even if the worker is productive and has no other issues they’ll get rid of you quickly just in case the other workers get ideas. How do I know?
It happened to my wife, and some of the other workers (golem-like creatures that they are) will join in with the boss to brown nose or to get rid of the competition. How do I know this? She was doing a great job but because she didn’t do the free overtime she was ‘rocking the boat’. They pushed her out over some other pretext of course. Idiots would heave needed to hire two people to replace her! People very rarely get directly fired in Taiwan, they’ll just make your life intolerable first.
That’s what I call option 1. 
Here is one from a year ago. Is that real life enough? 30 days notice = fired! It is pretty clear that you started following this board < 1 year ago because otherwise you would have been all over that.
You continue to act like this stuff doesn’t happen regularly in Taiwan. You continue to dodge the question of whether or not you have ever worked in a standard Taiwanese business or buxiban. You continue to show that you have no idea what the working environment is like at all in Taiwan. I think you live in Taiwan. I think you work in Taiwan but most likely freelancing or perhaps on an expat package. I highly doubt you work for Taiwanese manager.[/quote]
I did answer affirmatively in another thread, when I mentioned that I had received holiday pay for both Oct 31 and Dec 25 (which were still LSA holidays at the time), though not without struggle.
The thread linked gives almost no information in the OP, and there was no follow-up. Strider may have had a legitimate grievance but chosen not to pursue it, or he may have accepted a settlement. On the other hand, it may have been a legitimate Article 12 termination. If he had no reason to be fired (i.e. no Article 12 reason), he could claim the notice period salary plus severance pay. (That would be the Article 16 notice period, shorter than 30 days unless he had worked there for several years.)
If it was a buxiban as you suggested (but the OP didn’t say), the boss probably didn’t want to risk losing the replacement by making him/her wait a month before starting. Strider may not have known that bonuses are even supposed to exist.[/quote]
You have to be kidding. You have been trying to make it sound mythical that this kind of stuff happens. The OP gave his 30 days notice, the manager assured him that he could work for the rest of the month and then his contract was terminated. Getting fired in Taiwan when you give your notice is not a myth despite as much as you continue to try to claim it is. You continue to appear clueless in how the real world works but I will give you props that you are great at reading the labor laws.
That’s what I call option 1. [/quote]
OK, I misunderstood that “stiff him on the bonus”
Here is one from a year ago. Is that real life enough? 30 days notice = fired! It is pretty clear that you started following this board < 1 year ago because otherwise you would have been all over that.
You continue to act like this stuff doesn’t happen regularly in Taiwan. You continue to dodge the question of whether or not you have ever worked in a standard Taiwanese business or buxiban. You continue to show that you have no idea what the working environment is like at all in Taiwan. I think you live in Taiwan. I think you work in Taiwan but most likely freelancing or perhaps on an expat package. I highly doubt you work for Taiwanese manager.[/quote]
I did answer affirmatively in another thread, when I mentioned that I had received holiday pay for both Oct 31 and Dec 25 (which were still LSA holidays at the time), though not without struggle.
The thread linked gives almost no information in the OP, and there was no follow-up. Strider may have had a legitimate grievance but chosen not to pursue it, or he may have accepted a settlement. On the other hand, it may have been a legitimate Article 12 termination. If he had no reason to be fired (i.e. no Article 12 reason), he could claim the notice period salary plus severance pay. (That would be the Article 16 notice period, shorter than 30 days unless he had worked there for several years.)
If it was a buxiban as you suggested (but the OP didn’t say), the boss probably didn’t want to risk losing the replacement by making him/her wait a month before starting. Strider may not have known that bonuses are even supposed to exist.[/quote]
You have to be kidding. You have been trying to make it sound mythical that this kind of stuff happens. The OP gave his 30 days notice, the manager assured him that he could work for the rest of the month and then his contract was terminated. Getting fired in Taiwan when you give your notice is not a myth despite as much as you continue to try to claim it is. You continue to appear clueless in how the real world works but I will give you props that you are great at reading the labor laws.[/quote]
The subject matter of this thread has migrated… Strider’s case appears to be an illegal termination that resulted from the employee giving notice, but there’s no suggestion it had anything to do with a bonus.
If the replacement started immediately, that means the boss didn’t do it to save money, unless the replacement had a lower salary. The boss may have done it out of spite, but in a buxiban context I would bet it was the boss not wanting to risk losing that particular replacement or risk finding a replacement who wouldn’t be able to start on the right date. It still doesn’t appear to match the situation of the OP of this thread (who intended to solve the replacement problem), but thank you for pointing it out anyway.
[quote=“yyy”]
The subject matter of this thread has migrated… Strider’s case appears to be an illegal termination that resulted from the employee giving notice, but there’s no suggestion it had anything to do with a bonus.
If the replacement started immediately, that means the boss didn’t do it to save money, unless the replacement had a lower salary. The boss may have done it out of spite, but in a buxiban context I would bet it was the boss not wanting to risk losing that particular replacement or risk finding a replacement who wouldn’t be able to start on the right date. It still doesn’t appear to match the situation of the OP of this thread (who intended to solve the replacement problem), but thank you for pointing it out anyway.[/quote]
There is no migration of the subject matter. Basically everyone in this thread has said that if you give notice then prepare for that to be your last day. That was exactly the warning that I gave and I said that the oP would have an excellent case that the labor board would almost certainly back you up on. If you give notice then there is a good chance that you will have to fight a battle due to early termination.
Yet you continue to insist that this is unlikely to happen. You are clueless as to how office politics work. I wish you the best of luck at your job since you have already fought a battle over commemorative holidays and won. You won that battle but there is a good chance that your boss didn’t enjoy losing it.
[quote=“Abacus”]There is no migration of the subject matter. Basically everyone in this thread has said that if you give notice then prepare for that to be your last day. That was exactly the warning that I gave and I said that the oP would have an excellent case that the labor board would almost certainly back you up on. If you give notice then there is a good chance that you will have to fight a battle due to early termination.
Yet you continue to insist that this is unlikely to happen. You are clueless as to how office politics work. I wish you the best of luck at your job since you have already fought a battle over commemorative holidays and won. You won that battle but there is a good chance that your boss didn’t enjoy losing it.[/quote]
If I had an NT for every person who said I was clueless (or every time you said it)… 
I wish you well too.
Let’s consider a scenario: you give notice and immediately get fired. Your monthly salary is $60,000. You’ve worked exactly 3 months + 1 day (the minimum notice provision kicks in at 3 months), so you get 10 days’ salary (we’ll call it 1/3 month to keep it simple, ignoring the extra day) in lieu of a notice period plus 1/3 month’s salary as severance pay. This means in total you get 2/3 month’s salary or $40,000, even though you only worked one day in the month. You don’t get compensated for the time you spend chasing your former employer for the payment, but if the company resists for more than 30 days, it gets fined at least $320,000. (That’s 300k for severance + 20k for the notice period. And this is assuming they haven’t committed any other violations and don’t owe you anything else, like holiday pay. You also get 5% annual interest if the case goes to court or if an arbitrator awards it; of course most people would rather be paid immediately, but how many banks offer that kind of rate?)
Variation: you’ve worked exactly 1 year + 1 day (at the 1 year mark, the minimum notice period doubles), so you get 20 days’ salary (we’ll call it 2/3 month) in lieu of a notice period plus 13/12 month’s salary as severance pay. This means you get 21/12 month’s salary or $105,000 for one day of normal work and some time spent pursuing the claim.
Variation: you’ve worked exactly 3 years + 1 day (at the 3 year mark, the minimum notice period goes up to 30 days and stays there), so you get 30 days’ salary (we’ll call it 1 month) in lieu of a notice period plus 37/12 month’s salary as severance pay. This means you get 49/12 month’s salary or $245,000 for one day of normal work and some time spent pursuing the claim.
Note 1: with this kind of salary, severance pay is tax free.
Note 2: if the notice period salary is paid in lieu of the actual notice period, the Ministry of Finance considers it part of the severance pay, so it’s also tax free as above. (Yes, this means you pay less tax if you don’t work than if you do, even though your income is the same. 
)
Note 3: if you’re Taiwanese or married to a Taiwanese, you’re probably subject to the “new system” in the Labor Pension Act, so the numbers will be different.
Again, this is all assuming the employer can neither demonstrate a legitimate reason to fire you nor successfully blackmail you about anything.
To the OP if we haven’t lost you, whatever course of action you choose, please tell us how it turns out.