Since getting here a few years ago, I’ve always wondered what it would be like to ride an NSR or FZR around. I’ve looked at a few bikes and now deciding. Going to pull the trigger on one of these tomorrow. Pros and cons? Obviously the NSR is what it is, a two stroke, race-kart sounding, pocket rocket that billows smoke, needs to be kick started and requires special attention, and the FZ® is what it is, a “screaming turtle” that can be made to look quite good and with some significant engine modifications, run quickly as well.
Or is there more than just the stereotypes?
The bikes I’m looking at were seemingly well maintained, were mechanically good from what I could tell, and are legit, able to be properly registered. Obviously leaving some leeway in there to take care of the little things that need to be taken care of after purchase, but the prices are similar and low enough to not really matter.
Is this even a fair comparison?
I am going to be using the bike to run for weekend jaunts across the mountains and occasional runs to the grocery store. Probably not going to be putting them on the track.
I dont know much about the NSR but i ride a FZR and its great, parts are easy to get. bored it to 250 and its awesome up and down the mountains… ^^ and yes its a screaming nice looking turtle ^^
Kind of sad to be comparing little toy bikes in this day when so much more is available, but having lived through the age of import barriers and even martial law, I will indulge you for the sake of nostalgia!
I owned three or four NSRs, mostly concurrently, one of them for 10 years, and used to rebuild tune and tweak them for friends. I’ve worked on many FZ/FZR/Breeze models but never owned one.
NSR is pretty tiny. If you’re a big or tall guy, get the Yamaha. It’s much heavier than it should be, the frame being a copy of the JDM/EDM aluminium design, but in thick, heavy steel tube. OTOH, no matter how hard you crash them it’s almost impossible to bend that frame. There are much better rear shocks available now but the forks are so weak you are best served by junking the whole front and grafting something better on there.
The NSR makes about 24bhp stock and can be tweaked to give 30bhp reliably and maybe 35bhp if you don’t care about overhaul interval.
NSR parts are getting very rare and many parts can only be ordered from Thailand. Body panels etc. you mind find unobtainable from any source.
The Taiwan production NSR150 has an aluminum cylinder with cast-in iron liner. While it’s not of bad quality the quality of available oversize pistons is really poor, typically lasting only 10~15,000km. There used to be a Wiseco forged piston available but most machine shops would fit them too tight and they would fail. The usual replacement path is the 125cc cylinder from Thailand which is a coated bore, which unless you have a bad seizure will last forever. Just keep replacing the pistons and rings. It’s counter-intuitive but the 125cc has more performance potential than the 150cc Taiwan item. Kymco did not increase the outer dimensions of the cylinder casting when increasing the bore and as a consequence the area of the transfer ports is reduced to the point where they cannot support the needed time-area to effectively fill the cylinder at higher rpm. However, the Kymco ignition box retards ignition timing beyond 9,000rpm which means it cannot take full advantage of the Thai cylinder’s potential. You can buy aftermarket CDI boxes or perhaps use the Honda Thailand item.
There is one bearing in the gearbox which is a completely non-standard size and cannot be purchased on the open market, and Honda dropped the part from their stock list. If this fails you need to have adapters made or have a larger bearing ground to size. Built-in obsolescence at it’s finest.
Earlier models have smaller fairings and engines straight from Japan… much better quality. Early ones have ‘Honda Racing’ cast into the alternator cover. Later ones have ‘KYMCO’ there.
Later models have big, ugly fairings / body parts and EGR. Power is reduced a bit from the early ones. There is a revised RC valve computer at some point which cycles the valve at lower rpm just to make sure that people who never run the engine hard or use crap oil don’t get the valve stuck. This ruins torque and tractability at low revs but it reduced warranty claims. Sadly, KYMCO did not change the part number so there is no way to tell them apart from the case.
One thing to be very wary of when buying an earlier model is the instrument cluster. Early bikes had the oil level warning system wired differently to the later ones. Although the later clocks are plug and play on the earlier model, and the oil level will test on and off at start-up, the switch in the tank will not trigger the warning light when the tank is empty. Ask me how I know this.
The Yamaha makes 17bhp stock and you won’t get anything more out of that without increasing cylinder capacity. Even you bump it to 250cc it’s still pretty slow. The motor is massively undersquare, which helps low-end torque. Despite it revving to 11k or so it’s pretty gutless. The engine is based off the JDM SRV250, a retro-styled bike. Basically it was massively de-stroked to make 150cc. Heads and cylinders are the same, as is the crankcase and possibly the pistons, so you can drop the SRV crank and rods straight in to bring it back to 250cc. There was also a 250 Virago in Japan which had the same internals, though it only had a single carb. There are other kits which open it up further to 300cc or I think even 330cc. I stopped paying attention a long time ago. One problem with these kits is balance. The JDM bikes all had rubber engine mounts to keep the vibration down. The Taiwan 150cc models have such a short stroke they are very smooth. Put the 250cc guts into your FZ* and it buzzes pretty well. White fingers and numb feet on longer rides.
There was a revision fairly early in the model lifespan which added an oil cooler. Doesn’t seem to make any difference to reliability.
Yamaha build quality is way better than Kymcos, especially evident in suspension, brakes and wheels.
Yamaha parts, at least engine and cycle parts are more available since production went on a lot later.
Only the FZR has a rear disk brake, the others have drums back there which only seem to make noise rather than any brake torque…
There is a 3rd alternative, though I haven’t seen one in many years. There were some Suzuki RG125 Gammas on the market back in the day, though they weren’t popular and I don’t think too many were sold. The FZR and the later NSR were built to look much bigger than they were, and sold much better. The Suzuki was tiny with skinny tires, and despite being faster and lighter than the competitors, no-one really wanted it. Engines, electrics, suspension and brakes were all imported from Japan btw. 25bhp out of the box and high build quality. 250 Gammas used two of the same top-ends and are easily tuned to 70bhp or more. It makes sense a 125 can make 35bhp properly tuned.
Personally, I feel a crotch-rocket is all about speed and noise. The FZR kind of looks the part but regardless of the money you spend on it, it will not keep up with a healthy NSR. Unless you are a big heavy rider, a well-sorted NSR will give much bigger bikes a run for their money in the mountains or a tight circuit.
Thanks for the write up! Really informative. Little toy bike is definitely right. This is mostly going to be a leisure project bike sort of thing, wrenching and riding. Just getting tired of riding a scooter everyday and want something different. For mountains and grocery runs and maybe even commuting from time to time.
I just rode around the entire coast and have come to see for myself, as all you have already, how the riding roads here are OK but not great by any means. My buddies keep egging me on to get a Ducati (and they say they will too if I do… yah right) but holy crap at the markup and the fact the riding roads here (eg: 9) while beautiful in the coastal areas, pale in comparison to things that can be found in various parts of the USA and Europe, and have no place to flex a real bike. For the price of one of these Taiwan market Ducatis, I could buy a pair of Ducatis in the States and have enough left over to fly over there a few times a year to ride them with some buddies on unpatrolled mountain roads, at trackdays or whatever. It seems silly to spend a bunch of money on a big bike here, so I’ll just spend as little money as possible on an old kicker bike and have fun with it. And buy another Duck in the States and fly over for the fix.
BTW, redwagon what would you get brand new in Taiwan now if you were looking for something like this?
FWIW, I decided to go with the NSR. I am thinking about naked-ing the thing out. Something like this:
Hmm, what does the fairing sell for? Selling the fairing might make the bike almost free…
Hmm thanks for the heads up on that. The bike is really cheap, so it may not even be worth the trouble of reselling ever. What I understand is once the papers are transfered, you can basically do anything you want assuming the papers never transfer again. Is that right?
So my only question is then, is there an “off road” license like in California where you basically say the thing is a track-only machine? Can you transfer ownership that way? I’m planning on staying here for a while, so could end up owning this bike for a long time. Basically, the idea would be if I get to the point that I’m tired of the bike, is it possible to sell or give it to racer as an “off road” machine while removing myself from liability should someone in the future decide to drive the thing on the road?
[quote=“mabagal”]…the fact the riding roads here (eg: 9) while beautiful in the coastal areas, pale in comparison to things that can be found in various parts of the USA and Europe, and have no place to flex a real bike. For the price of one of these Taiwan market Ducatis, I could buy a pair of Ducatis in the States and have enough left over to fly over there a few times a year to ride them with some buddies on unpatrolled mountain roads, at trackdays or whatever. It seems silly to spend a bunch of money on a big bike here…
BTW, redwagon what would you get brand new in Taiwan now if you were looking for something like this?
[/quote]
I wouldn’t, for the reasons you mention above and the very high risk of (literally) running into Ah Huang out there on a bike too nice to ride slowly. Best bang for buck IMO is the 650 Ninja.
I keep my Triumph near Bern and enjoy the hell out of it when I visit the Alps. My WRX provides the rest of my fun-on-wheels.
This. The govt. helps the sale of new bikes along by getting the old ones off the road by means fair or foul. KYMCO won’t stock the parts and you can’t pass inspection without them.
Cool thanks, I guess I’ll just have to clear some room in a closet for the fairings.
Thanks for the pointers to the other threads, I’ll start talking to some of the importer/mechanics here, as looking at the it, to go naked I’ll need to get some mirror (maybe bar end would be easiest), move the instrument cluster, get some headlight brackets, and mount a headlight. Hmm, round headlight on an NSR? Interesting or sacrilegious?
I have owned an NSR for 7 years now. I have also owned a few FZR’s as well. Most of what redwagen said I would agree with. You can still find parts for the NSR though, and there are still a few shops that deal with just NSR’s around the Wan. A few in Taipei, and there is one in Yingge (My club.) If you keep your NSR up on the maintenance then it will be a pleasure for you and you will have a lot of fun with it. If you are going to start riding it around the mountains there are sure a few things I think you should change. I find that besides the engine, everything else on the stock NSR is shit. You really need to change the suspension and brakes. Most riders fit a wider 3.5’ wheel so the bike is more stable at high speeds and to have a better selection of tires. I find that the FZR stock is a lot more stable and better on brakes, but no power at all.
I recently restored an FZR and it was going to be my weekend warrior and use it for track use sometimes. My NSR is now a dedicated track whore that only gets towed out there, so I wanted another bike I could ride around the island and the track sometimes. So I chose to fix up a poor FZR. Well after it was finished I rode it to Ilan and back. I hated it, Hahhah. I hated the power on it. It was pretty much stock, but I had changed the suspension and brakes a bit, but I still hated it to much. So I sold it. I told myself never again would I get an FZR. Yes you can make them fast, 300+ cc, but still they are slower than my track NSR. So when it comes to small toy pocket bikes, I would say go for the NSR.
If you decide on it, I can give some info on a few shops that are specialize in NSR’s. You can still find parts, and if you want you can order some parts from Thailand too. There are a lot of parts to be found on Yahoo auction as well.
[quote=“mabagal”]Cool thanks, I guess I’ll just have to clear some room in a closet for the fairings.
Thanks for the pointers to the other threads, I’ll start talking to some of the importer/mechanics here, as looking at the it, to go naked I’ll need to get some mirror (maybe bar end would be easiest), move the instrument cluster, get some headlight brackets, and mount a headlight. Hmm, round headlight on an NSR? Interesting or sacrilegious?[/quote]
It’s been done plenty of times. Headlamp brackets are easy. The best lamp for the job is the round one off the FZ150 or Breeze… really good optics. The brake cylinder and clutch lever perches have mirror bosses in them already so lots of options there. If you try a bar-end mirror I predict you will switch back again very quickly. The stock handlebar plugs are heavy steel and damn vibrations very well. Take them out and your hands are numb and white very quickly.
The biggest problem going naked is both mounting the instrument cluster and closing off the back. The mounting points are on the fairing main bracket and asymmetrical, so a little hard to replicate. The back of the cluster wasn’t designed to be weather-proof so it needs to be closed to rainwater or it will die.
I’d be interested to know what it is you don’t agree with. I’ve been out of the pocket-rocket loop for some years now and would be interested to know what has changed. When I sold my last 1.75 bikes it was really, really hard to get parts for them. KYMCO had basically decided they weren’t going to support it anymore and the aftermarket hadn’t yet risen to the challenge.
[quote=“redwagon”][quote=“mabagal”]Cool thanks, I guess I’ll just have to clear some room in a closet for the fairings.
Thanks for the pointers to the other threads, I’ll start talking to some of the importer/mechanics here, as looking at the it, to go naked I’ll need to get some mirror (maybe bar end would be easiest), move the instrument cluster, get some headlight brackets, and mount a headlight. Hmm, round headlight on an NSR? Interesting or sacrilegious?[/quote]
It’s been done plenty of times. Headlamp brackets are easy. The best lamp for the job is the round one off the FZ150 or Breeze… really good optics. The brake cylinder and clutch lever perches have mirror bosses in them already so lots of options there. If you try a bar-end mirror I predict you will switch back again very quickly. The stock handlebar plugs are heavy steel and damn vibrations very well. Take them out and your hands are numb and white very quickly.
The biggest problem going naked is both mounting the instrument cluster and closing off the back. The mounting points are on the fairing main bracket and asymmetrical, so a little hard to replicate. The back of the cluster wasn’t designed to be weather-proof so it needs to be closed to rainwater or it will die.[/quote]
Thanks!
There are clamp-around bar end mirrors available to allow keeping the handlebar plugs and I generally like the lower look without the mirror stalks, so may try that. I assume I can just go to any of the FZR or NSR mechanics and order the brackets and headlight?
For the back of the instrument panel, I am guessing it would be easier to custom-fab an enclosure than to source a part of an actual NSR125F (factory naked NSR). I guess there are several ways to do this, but one question I would have is where can I buy fiberglass and resin? And foam blocks? I am thinking B&Q would have all this, especially the pink foam, but not certain they will have fiberglass and resin. Maybe a boatyard out in Danshui?
I’m supposed to pick up the bike tonight, so getting excited to do some weekend wrenching. If I can source the parts and it’s sunny, hope to have this thing cleaned up, sorted out, and converted to naked over the course of an afternoon this weekend.
There are no off-the-shelf naked conversion parts I know about. Mechanic will have to figure out what brackets can be kludged to fit. Yes, foam and glass sounds like a good plan for closing the deck off. B&Q don’t have mat as I recall, though they might have resin. Most people will just tape it all off and it’s ugly. Even if you could get hold of the NSR125F cluster the chances it would plug’nplay are zip. Be very careful with the speedometer and tach drive cables as they are meant to mount to a fixed, low cluster. Move it higher and have it swing with the top yoke and the cables are probably not long enough. I’ve done this before but it was a long time ago.
Also be aware the alternator on the Honda does not like driving anything bigger than a 55/50W H4 bulb… you can easily let out the magic smoke.
If you have the later model bike with EGR, start making plans to remove that system. It’s the work of the devil.
I have been working, riding and racing NSR’s for years now, but I am more of a rider than a mechanic. I have rebuilt my NSR’s engine many times with help, but I still think your knowledge of NSR’s is amazing. This is what I disagreed with.
Yes people are using the 150cc Thai coated bore, not the 125cc.
Most shops that specialize in NSR’s make their own these days. This isn’t that big of a deal, they are just not Honda made. You can find them though.
True, but these engines that have Honda stamped on them were actually never made in Japan, but were made here in Taiwan. At that time Kymco had bought the “blueprints” to make the NSR, but were still required to stamp it with Honda. These engine were made with better quality that the Kymco ones. Those first gen fairings are so hard to find these days. I wish I had a set.
Ah. I remember the first guys to use the Thai cylinders were using the 125cc model. Would be interested to know if the Thai 150cc cylinder has better transfer ports than the Taiwan version, which is really lacking. If not, you’d probably get more power out of the 125cc top end as long as you could hold ignition timing out to 11k or so and had the right expansion chamber for it. I once had a chance to ride a Euro spec NSR125 in Italy and it was amazingly fast. The low-rpm torque from the bigger cylinder might work better up at Longtan however… We digress…
That’s great news. It’s not hard to do the job if you are willing and have access to a good centerless grinding machine. Naturally, if I tried to get a small number done, no-one wanted to know. It was a hassle. Glad someone stepped up.
[quote=“rk1951”]
True, but these engines that have Honda stamped on them were actually never made in Japan, but were made here in Taiwan. At that time Kymco had bought the “blueprints” to make the NSR, but were still required to stamp it with Honda. These engine were made with better quality that the Kymco ones.[/quote]
I have heard both stories actually. Looking at the vast difference in casting and machining quality between the 1st and 2nd generation engines it was probably too depressing to accept that Kymco deliberately cut that many corners in production. Much easier to believe the Made in Japan story. Oh well. You learn something new everyday and it isn’t usually what you were hoping for.
BTW, it might be they were allowed to cast the early covers with Honda on them to match the decals on the gas tanks at the time. Note that KYMCO broke it’s cooperation with Honda some years ago in order to export scooters, which was strictly verboten. I betting it was that later models had to be cast with the KYMCO name for this reason, rather than the other way 'round. Trivia really, but useful for dating bikes and engines to some degree.
Yeah the 150cc Thai cylinder had way better transfer ports, which allows for so much more power than compared to the stock Taiwanese made one. It is “night and day.” Right now with my Thai cylinder and head and my Honda RS 125cc wiring harness, CDI, and High speed stator, I am reving and making power to just about 12k. I really want to and need to experient with different expansion champers. It is hard to find many sizes with the Thai cylinder and head.
mabagal are you buying the brown one on Tealit? My work mate called to buy that one today and he was told someone was already picking it up tonight…
When I came to Taiwan in 1998 there wasn’t much choice. The NSR, the RZR or the FZR. Actually had my eyes on the RZR until I saw a row of NSR’s parked out front of a bike shop. I love the two-stroke powerband so went for the NSR as it looked much better than the RZR.
It is a 1996 model and I bought it in 2000. Mine has Honda stamped on one side of the engine and Kymco on the other side. Used it as my daily ride to work for years. It was reliable and hardly spent a cent on it until I started racing it at out at LongTan in 2008. I would never make back the money I have now spent on it in modifications (and repairs), but I’m not really worried, It’s a great hobby and things are pretty cheap. I couldn’t afford to be racing back in Australia.
Looking to get a few more modifications this Saturday and then hoping to knock off 2 seconds at Longtan…
Ha, though I am not the slowest on the track, I am still 7 seconds behind RK on his NSR.
This is how it looked in 2000 when I bought it.
This is how it looks now as I race it.
It is still registered and I still ride it one the road, though if it doesn’t pass the pollution test next year, I will turn it into a proper race bike.
