On the tipping point

Taiwan Living in Taiwan
1

Hey folks,

New guy on the forum. I’ve spent the last 5 hours or so reading through what seem like the most salient threads around here, and decided to throw up a post and introduce myself.

I’m planning to move to Taiwan in May, right after I finish my last two courses at university here in Victoria, BC, Canada.
My major is “Pacific and Asian Studies”, and I studied Mandarin for a few years.
In summer '06, I lived in Kaohsiung for a couple months on a language exchange at NSYSU.

I bought a scooter for [edit] NT$4000(CAD) from a random Scandinavian guy who was on his way out, toured around to Taipei, Kending, and Hualian, and utterly fell in love with the island.

I’ve been wanting to head back to Kaohsiung to teach English since my return here two years ago.

That said, after reading around this forum for a few hours, I have to admit, I’m feeling incredibly discouraged.
It seems like 90% of the posts I read are sad/bitter/dissatisfied/disgruntled about wages, working conditions, living conditions, weather, friendships, and so on.

Is it really that bad over there?
I’m hoping this is a skewed sample; you folks seem like you have a pretty tight community, and people who are familiar with each other tend to spend a decent amount of their time bitching because the good stuff is taken for granted. That’s human nature. =)

I was hoping I could ask you guys to take a step back from your usual mindsets for a moment and consider your life and times in Taiwan as they stand in the grand scheme of things. You guys must be there for a reason (those of you who are still there). What were you looking for when you went there? What did you find that kept you there?

I have a few reasons for wanting to move there:

  1. It’s staggeringly beautiful, even in some of the urban areas
  2. I’ve been a conversation partner at a private ESL school for a year and a half, and I really love teaching eager students
  3. I want to continue learning Mandarin (and eventually Japanese and Korean as well)
  4. I really like the free lifestyle; traffic lights as guidelines, police leaving you alone unless you’re causing real trouble, no coffee cups warning idiots not to burn themselves on hot coffee, and so on
  5. I want to save a couple hundred dollars a month for travel. I don’t really drink much, and I can rather enjoy myself without buying new toys all the time

Do you think I’ll be disappointed?

Thanks in advance for all your wit and wisdom,

-Mike

2

Well, I stayed there for seven years, leaving last January and despite the difficulties, I loved it.

I loathed teaching in Taiwan; I’m not sure if it was Taiwan or just general burnout, but I’m stiil working in EFL, but not teaching and I’m very happy in my work. It was much more fun teaching in the UK, for sure. I can’t convey how utterly down-trodden I was and how soul-destroying it became. And I had a ‘good job’. One more room full of bovine lower-intermediate 23 year old females with bad attitudes and I was ready to start shooting.

The pros were

  1. My amazing groups of friends both Taiwanese and British (I even had a Canadian friend!), from work, from forumosa, from Chinese classes I did. They made it incredibly hard to leave.

  2. Taiwan is beautiful; I love the countryside, and the coast and the mountains (on the other hand, don’t focus on this- most places are ‘beautiful’)

  3. The convenience of living in XinYi, with my own big flat with a roof garden and the best view in Taipei (when I look back on the pics I took from my roof, I still sniffle) yet with twenty minutes’ walk I can be in a mountain temple or a nightmarket.

  4. The immersion in a culture I find fascinating. Constantly learning new Chinese words, seeing new things, seeing the place gradually opening up yet not losing itself.

The cons

  1. You are always the stupid/special foreigner. People touch your hair (growl), talk about you as if you aren’t there and couldn’t possibly understand their secret code (Chinese).
  2. Working visa laws are absurd; people who have local spouses are given priority for most jobs because they are cheaper and easier to employ. For teaching jobs, you have to have an invasive, discriminatory and disgusting ‘health check’.
  3. Stagnant salaries. Idiotic clowns telling you that 60000 NT a month is a ‘lot’ when you have no permanent residency, no chance of getting a mortgage to buy your own home or a pension.
3

NT$120? Wow!!

4

[quote=“MistaMike”]That said, after reading around this forum for a few hours, I have to admit, I’m feeling incredibly discouraged.
It seems like 90% of the posts I read are sad/bitter/dissatisfied/disgruntled about wages, working conditions, living conditions, weather, friendships, and so on.[/quote]

There’s a simple reason for that: Those of us that are happy here tend not to moan about it too much. :wink:

That said, if you have already visited and have learned a bit of the language and are enthusiastic about continuing to do so, I’d say you’ll be fine. It is a wonderful place with a lot to offer for the person who takes the right attitude toward it.

Welcome to Fcom, Mike.

5

NT$120? Wow!![/quote]

Aren’t they all?

The simple answer is usually exactly that. A lot of long-termers complain bitterly about some stuff but still stay because they love most of it. Complaining is a way of venting; blowing off psychological steam with like minds. Sometimes hard to do in your Taiwanese family or office. There is a LOT of bs, but there is everywhere and it’s not unique to Taiwan.

People who are geuinely depressed, homesick and not fitting in, in my experience are the ones who keep quiet and don’t have an outlet for negativity.

Remember, when making any 20-something/midlife crisis move to Xanadu; X is just a place with its own ups and downs. You bring yourself with you.

6

Very true - Yeah, there are some people who are genuinely negative, but a lot of what you see here is just that - venting. Getting it off one’s chest in order to function in a sane, generally happy fashion.

Here is another con:
People holding ARCs are charged 20% tax for the first 183 days residency in the country. This is nothing new, if you come early enough to get over 183 days in the calendar year, you eventually get a refund (taxes for new teachers are generally 6-13%). The new bit is that they will start counting the 183 days at the start of every year - regardless of how long you have been in the country. So, it you have been here for a couple years, and leave the country in, say, June, then you do not get a refund for the 20% tax you just paid from January to June.
It really screws the Filipinos and other South-East Asian workers, who are already paying 1/3 of their wages for “broker fees”. I suppose it is a great way for the government to get extra revenue from non-voting people who contribute immensely to this society. Sigh.

Anyhow, I am from the Island, too, and I have found enough to love here that I am still here.

(in spite of apparently despicable grammar)

7

Come. Try it out. Maybe you love it, maybe you hate it. Dunno. Regardless, it will change your life.

I’ve been cast out so to speak and homesick…for Taiwan.

8

I think your first respondent said that “Taiwan is beautiful”. It is in many places, but it will take you significant time, as a newbie, to get to these places. I can tell you flat out that the ride in the bus/taxi from the airport to the next city -no matter which one it is- will be a ride with a view of tin-shack hutments, corrugated iron, painted sheet metal, and, overall, simply the least creative land you will have ever laid eyes on. Ever. I recently had 2 siblings visit me, and I live in Taoyuan; I found myself trying desperately to distract them as their eyes widened at the sites of metal scrap heaps, huge lots of cement mixers and an overall atrocity of architecture. Lots of old-timers here have programemed themselves to ignore these features of Taiwanese society, but as a new arrival, you won’t be able to.

Just hold your breath for awhile, and later on things will impove: there are incredibly friendly people, gorgeous babes, and wicked mountain roads: arrive drunk, buy more beer in the airport, down 3 before getting in your bus/taxi, and things will work out more smoothly.

9

Life changing it will be. She will make sure of it :slight_smile:

10

:sunglasses:

11

[quote]1. It’s staggeringly beautiful, even in some of the urban areas[/quote]I would hardly call Taiwan “staggeringly beautiful”, but it has something that can’t be topped. And there are moments you’ll have that will wow you because you didn’t grow up in Taiwan therefore you can see what others take for granted.

[quote]2. I’ve been a conversation partner at a private ESL school for a year and a half, and I really love teaching eager students[/quote] I will not touch this with a ten foot pole. :laughing:

[quote]3. I want to continue learning Mandarin (and eventually Japanese and Korean as well)[/quote] You will learn Mandarin but be prepared, if you move to the city, to stick to your guns about learning it. It can be a bit easy to slip and give it up you don’t give a concentrated effort.

[quote]4. I really like the free lifestyle; traffic lights as guidelines, police leaving you alone unless you’re causing real trouble, no coffee cups warning idiots not to burn themselves on hot coffee, and so on[/quote] Seems like you are fascinated with the idea of pushing the boundaries and not having to follow the same rules. Leave that high school mentality at home if you go, this is the real world you’re moving into.

[quote]
5. I want to save a couple hundred dollars a month for travel. I don’t really drink much, and I can rather enjoy myself without buying new toys all the time[/quote] Be prepared to work for it. But otherwise, enjoy the idea that you have vacation time coming no matter what.

[quote]Do you think I’ll be disappointed?[/quote]You’ll be as disappointed as you make up your mind, but I will say this–attachments to expectations usually do lead to disappointment.

Have fun, and a blast. Just go with a plan and an open mind.

12

My 2C

I have lived in 5 Asian countries and Taiwan is by far my favourite. Yes there is a lot of BS to deal with that you don’t get at home but equally there is a lot of BS at home that you don’t deal with in Taiwan.

If you come with the right attitude you will have a blast, and if not you will still go home with stories that will amaze and confound your buddies.

Stay more than a year and like Buttercup you may find yourself there for 7 or more, I only left because I had the chance to move to Shanghai with my employer and would love to go back.

Good luck

13

[quote=“Edgar Allen”]My 2C
I have lived in 5 Asian countries and Taiwan is by far my favourite. [/quote]
I’m just curious… What countries have you lived in? I’ve lived in Taiwan and Thailand. Each has its good and bad, but personally I prefer Thailand.

14

HK, Korea, Vietnam, Taiwan, China (Shanghai). Some crueler posters might suggest HK, Taiwan and China are all one though!

15

Ha! One China. I’d say the three countries are just different degrees of “China” - Hong Kong is the most modern, Taiwan is in the middle, and the mainland is just chaos.

16

Nah, don’t bother coming, my good sir. There’s simply nowhere to get good champagne, and when I do mange to import some, the damned chauffeur doesn’t even know how to drive well enough without making me spill the stuff all over the leather, and then there’s no one who knows how to clean it properly. I’ve had to shoot two drivers so far this year already.

And horses! Don’t even get me started on horses: the drama one has to go through for a simple polo tournament. Honestly, it’s just unbelievable. I should never have left Herefordshire.

The butterflies are nice, though.

17

What? They are starting to tax all foreign workers 20% in January 2009? Is there a thread somewhere on it? (First I’ve heard about it)

(OP, the coffee cups do carry warnings about the temp of the beverage you’re about to enjoy, and traffic lights are more than guidelines judging by the number of pictures of my car I’ve received by registered mail. Paying the fines at the 7/11 is very convenient, though)

18

What? They are starting to tax all foreign workers 20% in January 2009? Is there a thread somewhere on it?[/quote]There are now three other threads where people are discussing it. This post by CraigTPE is very helpful.

19

[quote=“MistaMike”]I have a few reasons for wanting to move there:

  1. It’s staggeringly beautiful, even in some of the urban areas
  2. I’ve been a conversation partner at a private ESL school for a year and a half, and I really love teaching eager students
  3. I want to continue learning Mandarin (and eventually Japanese and Korean as well)
  4. I really like the free lifestyle; traffic lights as guidelines, police leaving you alone unless you’re causing real trouble, no coffee cups warning idiots not to burn themselves on hot coffee, and so on
  5. I want to save a couple hundred dollars a month for travel. I don’t really drink much, and I can rather enjoy myself without buying new toys all the time

Do you think I’ll be disappointed?

Thanks in advance for all your wit and wisdom,

-Mike[/quote]

  1. Yes, in some places, though there’s also an incredible amount of ugliness, as has been pointed out already. Most of the time, you will be surrounded by the latter (which you kind of tune out, but not really), and you’ll have to seek the former. As one other Taoyuan resident has pointed out, Taoyuan (and the whole trip out from the airport) is pretty ugly.

  2. Hmm… What to say? You may be lucky and get some great students. I have some fantastic students and I love them. As someone who has taught in both Australia and the U.K., there’s nothing like the behaviour of those kids here. Nothing. Some kids can be real brats, some kids can be unmotivated, some kids can be real weirdos (this is the main thing I have difficulties with), but you don’t get kids swearing in your face, throwing hard objects at you, etc. What you will find is that often, the attitude towards English teachers here is of them being singing, dancing clowns. It’s often (though not always) about the entertainment and the baby-sitting.

  3. From what I can gather, this is largely an individual thing, though much easier outside the big cities. That seems logical enough though.

  4. I too like the lawlessness here, though there are times when the traffic and driving abilities of most people here get to me. Likewise with the general slovenly state of the place. Overall, I can tolerate it (and even prefer it). Be aware that it’s a double-edge sword when you’re watching three people trying to get off a train and fifty people trying to get on a train at the same time.

  5. A couple of hundred dollars per month should be easy based upon what you’ve written. I save a ton here. I have friends who save even more (though they work themselves into the ground – I don’t). I have friends who save next to nothing (though they party or buy a lot of stuff). Of course, we’d all like to make more money, but it’s a pretty cushy number here, or at least my government job is.

I’ve been here almost a year and a half, and I will be here another couple. I’ll probably leave for a while to travel, and then I’ll be back. This place definitely gets close to you, doubly so if you meet one of the many wonderful ladies here.

20

Yes Taiwan may get you here, but its going to take a special lady to KEEP YOU HERE :slight_smile: