Because the Chinese were busy getting high on opium, courtesy of the British, to invent anything.
I think predatory cultures have the upper hand in the evolutionary game.
Uh, the British were only involved for a couple of centuries, the Chinese were smoking opium for 4,500 years before any limey dopepushers corrupted them.
Really? I believe that the Chinese smoked a much less potent mixture of tobacco and opium, and even that was introduced by the Dutch to Taiwan from Indochina, and then from Taiwan to China. The smoking of pure opium was something that the British introduced and encouraged. Itâs been a while since I studied this, so I could be wrong, but I donât think I am.
Before any Brits start getting defensive - Iâm simply stating a fact, nothing personal.
Yes, opium was a menace for centuries but there was a serious effort and success in eliminating opium in China during that time. Itâs one of the rare success that was sabotaged by the turn of the century British in the name of greed. For a more detailed information: wsu.edu/~dee/CHING/OPIUM.HTM
In another topic somewhere on this forum I mentioned that predatory cultures have the upper hand in evolutionary terms. If youâre a trekkie â Western powers = Borgs. Federation = Non Western nations but without the technology, Captain Kirk and Picard.
When you look at the past couple of centuries - China and Africa were in some ways - taken advantage of - by Western nations. So itâs really galling to have some westerners lecture non-westerners on how the west have superior cultures, yada, yada, yada⌠and China not having invented anything of worthâŚyada, yada, yada⌠and weâre rich youâre poor so weâre always rightâŚyada, yada, yada. Quite distasteful really.
For all the Westâs accomplishments and achievements it is wise to remember that itâs paid for partly with Asian and African blood.
From the article Red Frog linked to:
Right up there with the Third Reich? ha ha ha What a sick joke!
Thatâs the very first sentence of the article and gives a good idea of its bias. The opium story in China is a much more complicated story than what it first seems.
Right up there with the Third Reich? ha ha ha What a sick joke!
Thatâs the very first sentence of the article and gives a good idea of its bias to what is a much more complicated story than what it first seems.[/quote]
I do not really see what the author has to gain from being biased. Itâs not right up there with the Third Reich because the Chinese are not Jews hence less âworthy semi-humansâ - Just like we donât care about the deaths of Iraqi civilians but moan to high heavens about the deaths of American and British servicemen? At any rate, it is a fact that atrocious deeds were committed by Western powers to satisfy their lust for wealth and power. And choosing to ignore or embellish this basic fact doesnât make it go away.
=====> Hereâs more
Mr. Wells, in his âMiddle Kingdomâ describes the origin of this first war with England: âThis war was extraordinary in its origin as growing chiefly out of a commercial misunderstanding; remarkable in its course as being waged between strength and weakness, conscious superiority and ignorant pride; melancholy in its end as forcing the weaker to pay for opium within its borders against all its laws, thus paralyzing the little moral power its feeble government could exert to protect its subjects. . . . It was a turning point in the national life of the Chinese race, but the compulsory payment of six million dollars for the opium destroyed has left a stigma upon the English name.â
He also says, âThe conflict was now fairly begun; its issue between the parties so unequally matched --one having almost nothing but the right on its side, the other assisted by every material and physical advantage-could easily be foreseenâ and again, after speaking of it as being unjust and immoral, he concludes âGreat Britain, the first Christian power, really waged this war against the pagan monarch who had only endeavored to put down a vice harmful to his people. The war was looked upon in this light by the Chinese; it will always be so looked upon by the candid historian, and known as the Opium War.â
From a small pamphlet, âOpium: Englandâs Coercive Policy and Its Disastrous Results in China and Indiaâ by the Rev. John Liggins, we find the following: "As a specimen of how both wars were carried on, we quote the following from an English writer on the bombardment of Canton: âField pieces loaded with grape were planted at the end of long, narrow streets crowded with innocent men, women and children, to mow them down like grass till the gutters flowed with their blood.â In one scene of carnage, the Times correspondent recorded that half an army of 10,ooo men were in ten minutes destroyed by the sword, or forced into the broad river. " The Morning Herald " asserted that âa more horrible or revolting crime than this bombardment of Canton has never been committed in the worst ages of barbaric darkness.â
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I know, itâs shocking to think the white men can be barbaric, so i understand your⌠âdenialâ.
Itâs not a matter of gain, itâs a matter of being wrong.
No, there are good reasons not to compare the opium wars to the Third Reich.
Yes, and these are well documented. What is often missing from these misinformed historical debates is a historical perspective, and seeing the larger picture. For example, the British can be criticized for their part in the slave trade, but we need to look at the practice among other nations at the time, and take into consideration Britainâs great efforts to end slavery.
Itâs not a matter of gain, itâs a matter of being wrong.
No, there are good reasons not to compare the opium wars to the Third Reich.
Yes, and these are well documented. What is often missing from these misinformed historical debates is a historical perspective, and seeing the larger picture. For example, the British can be criticized for their part in the slave trade, but we need to look at the practice among other nations at the time, and take into consideration Britainâs great efforts to end slavery.[/quote]
If you are willing perhaps you can share your views in detail. Iâm not singling out turn of the century Britain as the sole evil empire. The Dutch have a hand in the opium mess. The Americans have the slave trade and the Indian massacres. The Aussies have issues with their aborigines. The Spaniards and Portuguese have their mini-crusades. Going back to the point: Western powers did commit atrocities which did affect the development of non-western civilizations, in this particular case: China. We can quibble about the details but I think we do agree on this point.
The author is probably making assumptions but I do not see how you can say the Third Reich is worse or the Opium War is worse. Both are atrocities in which countless lives were lost. Motivations and methods were different but the end result is the same. Perhaps I am misreading you and you can correct me on this but I do feel like you are trying to justify the British role in the Opium War, or at least making light of this event?
To British and American credit they did eventually cooperate in ending the opium menace. Progress were made with the abolition of slavery and the introduction of democratic ideals among other things. What I would just like to point out, and the gist of my entire post in relation to the original topic: âWhy China sucksâ (or why any other non-western nation sucks for that matter) is it was partly the effect of what western nations did during the past couple of centuries. In other words, itâs also partly your fault why China sucks. Itâs also partly your fault why China rocks. So it is in my opinion, highly distasteful to say how one culture is superior to the other. How do you measure? What is the standard?
Red Frog wrote [quote]If you are willing perhaps you can share your views in detail. [/quote]
Sorry, too busy to go into detail.
Different in scale and intention.
Not trying to justify it, nor making light of it; the Opium Wars are a shameful part of Brit history. I do feel, however, their relative importance and âevilâ are overplayed. My main problem is the way the Chinese use these historical events to cultivate an already large chip on the shoulder of their people. Of course, they avoid examining more recent Chinese-Chinese atrocities. They like to play up their victimhood at the hands of evil foreign powers and this is very unhealthy. I think we all know from history that victimhood and nationalism can be a nasty mix.
The CCP will play up anything if it suits their purpose. Theyâve done that several times already. However note that the accounts of the opium war were recorded by noted western historians during that period, and not from the Chinese propaganda machine. But you are right the CCP will make it appear to be a million times worse than it is - propaganda. In fairness though they also do that in the west, but they call it âadvertisingâ. 
Somehow this reminds me of the French government trying to lift the arms embargo on China. Talk about hypocrites to the nth degree.
Look almas john this is very simple. All Chinese believe that the English turned up in ships full of opium and forced the stuff on an unwilling population who had never heard of the stuff before and had in no way been taking opium since time immemorial. Yes of course all other Asians were taking it, but not the Chinese oh no because they, as you know, are/were superior. It was the British/Americans/Dutch/Whoever-we-want-to-stir-up-nationalist-fervour-against-at-the-time wot dunnit.
Any attempt to argue otherwise is entirely pointless. But you are welcome to try.
Lord Lucan, youâre addressing the wrong person. I share your opinion on this.
I think LL was agreeing with you, AJ.
Canât agree with that.
As for standard⌠I use my own perspective and bias, of course.
In following the rather specious line of logic presented on parts of this threadâŚI hereby blame Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Ireland, Scotland, Mexico, Poland, India, Japan and a plethora of countries yet to be named for the alleged âsuckittudeâ of the USAâŚ
Between you people or well-known historians like Wells, I think Iâd believe someone with established credibility. Unfortunately it does take time for some western people to admit that westerners are also capable of being vicious and immoral. First there is shock, then denial, then anger, then acceptance. I think you guys are in the denial stage.
Okay - the British and all other westerners are Godâs all-righteous gift to the world without them who knows the Chinese will probably still be practicing cannibalism and living in caves. Happy now? Japanese ultra-nationalists are mere amateurs compared to you guys.
Youâre being hypocritical. Recently, I think just today, in another thread you demanded that Eros cite your statement regarding x. Here, Iâd ask you to cite statements by anyone above asserting that westerners are not also capable of being vicious and immoral⌠go on now, cite the same and win a prize!
Again, who said anything of the sort?
Like they did during the Cultural Revolution when they pretty much closed themselves off from western influence/contact?
Well, I dunno. But, youâre pretty good at setting up strawmen.
God damn those Colombians and Afghans for foisting this hideous âcocaineâ and âheroinâ stuff on us! Damn them all to hell! And that shower of immoral reprobates the Dutch with their poxy âHeinekenâ! Glug glug snort snort. I read a book once which said⌠(cont. on p94)
Donât get too light-hearted on that theme there Lord Lucan, I know for a fact that the US maintains a fleet of B52 bombers loaded with pellets of opium that can be dropped over any given Chinese city in an instant. Why do you think they went into Afghanistan? Carpets?
Opium, or as itâs known in defence circles, TCA (the Chinese Achilles), is the only thing preventing China from taking over the world! One word from Bush, and those bombers will have all of Shanghai enjoying insane dreams within the hour. Iâd set up a net on your roof if I was you.
HG