Parents protest temporary school move near housing projects

Discussion Open Forum
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School vouchers were brought up by TC on page one and aye ayed by Okami, thus why I brought them up. Stats on exactly which income brackets are using school vouchers comes the book Shame of the Nation by Jonathan Kozol.

And personally, I am more disgusted by the nerve of parents who are getting renovation done in their elementary school building - one that is in far less need of one than the dilapidated ones in the city where ceilings leak, asbestos still exist, and are falling apart at the seams like ones in more impoverished areas of the district - to complain about the neighborhood their kids are being sent to. An underground parking garage? Because most 5- to 12-year-olds need underground parking… :unamused:

I say if the world were just, they should tell those parents to go fuck themselves and use the money to renovate a building where the parents would be more appreciative of what they are receiving in return for the displacement and more tolerant of the transition while their building is being repaired.

I also pity these kids, not for the fact that they are being moved around, and not for the fact that they will be traveling far, but for the fact that their parents are giving them some very unpalatable messages - 1) The rules don’t apply to our people; 2) We are too good to have to even look at people who don’t make as much money as us; and 3) Fairness is only for those who can’t afford anything better. These kids are raised by people with this mentality and are denied a a more realistic and more open-minded view of the world. Where’s Bill O’Reilly and his child abuse experts on this one?

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[quote]My only request with this thread/arguement, is that it doesn’t completely boil down to school vouchers: Devil’s playground or Guardian Angels. Look at the overall scheme of how class is going to play a huge factor in education in the 21st century.
[/quote]

I’m with you on this point. I think F. Smith pretty well beat vouchers to death awhile back, so why rehash it. Meanwhile, successful minorites are blending more into suburbanite life, and diversity – or at visible racial diversity – is very en vogue, so I’m thinking future conflicts will focus more on wealth, social status, and political views than just race.

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I have to say, the response by some of these parents is pretty ridiculous. Does the article say if it’s really that large of a majority of parents? I don’t have kids, but I can’t imagine I would be terribly upset about this. Like someone mentioned earlier, these kids are going to be off limits, and I think it’s fair to assume there will be no shortage of cops and security. The only thing that would bother me would be the distance to the school. If it’s not far away, then I think these parents are off their rockers.

At the macro level, though, all these problems would be solved by getting the central government out of the schools in virtually every conceivable way. I see people mentioning NCLB alot. You’re all right it was pushed through by Republicans, although to call it a Republican bill is a bit disingenuous. But either way, it’s been disastrous, as will be any attempt by distant bureaucrats to enforce draconian policies on a large and diverse nation. I like the idea of vouchers, but to really implement a policy of competition into the US public school system would take decades to see through. Most people can’t envision a society without government managed schools, and just assume it’s a way for the rich to soak the poor. Until people on the left can see vouchers as a better way to provide education to the most disadvantaged in our society, it will never take off. They will just portray it as taking money from poor schools and giving it to rich schools. It’s unfortunate that school decentralization has become a partisan issue. I encourage anyone here who is interested in learning about school choice to go to these websites.

cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-269.html

adl.org/vouchers/vouchers_co … uspect.asp

Obviously I agree with the Cato Institutes take on the matter, but the ADL provides a cogent argument as well. Let’s just try to be open to new ideas about how to reform one of the most important institutions in society, and not just brush them aside as partisan BS.

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[quote=“redandy”][quote]My only request with this thread/arguement, is that it doesn’t completely boil down to school vouchers: Devil’s playground or Guardian Angels. Look at the overall scheme of how class is going to play a huge factor in education in the 21st century.
[/quote]

I’m with you on this point. I think F. Smith pretty well beat vouchers to death awhile back, so why rehash it. Meanwhile, successful minorites are blending more into suburbanite life, and diversity – or at visible racial diversity – is very en vogue, so I’m thinking future conflicts will focus more on wealth, social status, and political views than just race.[/quote]

Sorry, I just had to get my two cents in :blah: , I wasn’t able to participate in the F. Smith thread…too much of a newb :whistle: :whistle:

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In a gesture of respect to Namahottie, I will address the previous posts and then keep it to class and schools forthwith.

Housecat: I enjoy links and often follow them for a better view of the situation. I’ll try to find some supporting links of my own.

[quote]Got any stats on that? If it were that easy, Okami, wouldn’t someone have simply had a precinct party membership drive already?[/quote]It depends on the party and the area. Knocking out an unpopular mayor in a small town would be child’s play, but for someone like Daley, you’d have to purge the voting rolls of the dead, stop him from bussing in his people in style, gangbeat and rob his men who pass out “walking around money”, put him under a real intense federal investigation and have your own people watch the vote. Not undoable, but really really difficult. A city council member would be a much easier target. Hence the reason you hear of problems with big city schools and nothing at all about small city schools. :ponder:

Namahottie: You raise a good point about their being no republicans being around or even on the ballot. I put in the search term, republican party precinct chicago, and got this link: 44thwardgop.org/captains.php So it is probably doable. I expect to hear of you in your new job any day now. :wink: I’ve already illustrated what it would take to take out Daley. City council members are easier. :whistle:

ImaniOU: I agree with you on the silliness of some of the renovations.

[quote]I say if the world were just, they should tell those parents to go fuck themselves and use the money to renovate a building where the parents would be more appreciative of what they are receiving in return for the displacement and more tolerant of the transition while their building is being repaired.[/quote]What about those kids who are poor that live in the district but benefit from the rich parents and the property taxes they pay to support the school they go to? What about the lack of funding the school wouldn’t receive if the parents put their kids in private school or moved to a better school district? Think through the degrees of consequence here. A good school can quickly become a shit school if the parents choose not to have their kids go their or move from the area for better schools. White flight happened for a reason.

[quote]I also pity these kids, not for the fact that they are being moved around, and not for the fact that they will be traveling far, but for the fact that their parents are giving them some very unpalatable messages - 1) The rules don’t apply to our people; 2) We are too good to have to even look at people who don’t make as much money as us; and 3) Fairness is only for those who can’t afford anything better. These kids are raised by people with this mentality and are denied a a more realistic and more open-minded view of the world.[/quote]I disagree the kids are shown by their parents not to put up with a shit circumstance. If someone hands you a crap sandwich to eat, tell them to fuck off and take appropriate action.

Class and schooling:
I will have to say that class has a lot to do with schooling. As one of the links I previously pointed to said, 4% of upper class children are in single parent homes, while it gets distressingly worse for middle and lower class people. I’d like to offer some reasoning that does not all have to do with class.

  1. Rich parents have a larger investment in their children and act accordingly
  2. The lack of education in basic civics that afflicts most Americans now. The higher you are on the socio-economic scale the likelier you are to vote and be involved with your community.
  3. Mobility, You can move to a good school district and you can bet your bottom dollar any good real estate agent knows the best schools in her area. I have a friend who pays through the nose for rent so her son will be in a smaller better school.
  4. Involved parents that Housecat talked about. They are not always rich, but they care about their child’s education. I’ve seen this with my one friend and my sister. They are very involved with their child’s schooling and talk to the teacher regularly and make changes if necessary i.e. talk to them about homework or make sure their kid sits in the front of the class. My other friend in the US has this all taken care of with his daughter’s charter school. They wouldn’t dare send their children to a public school in their city.
  5. TV time, this is huge, the more TV(I’d say crap TV ie MTV as I was a big PBS nature show fan) your kid watches the less well they do in class.
  6. Additional educational classes, Rich people have a hands down advantage in their ability to pay for these. You also see a lot of this in Taiwan. Additional Music, math, science, Chinese, English classes help in their overall acquisition of knowledge and ability to do well on tests.
  7. Property taxes, the major source of funding for a school district. I would argue this has to do with class.
  8. Volunteers, Stay at home moms are concentrated percentage wise in lower and rich classes. Middle class moms tend to work more as a percentage. Rich moms having a higher socio-economic status have a larger degree of involvement in their community and are likelier to volunteer and pay for additional educational activities.
  9. Smaller communities, How often has the white flight been raised as a reason for the hollowing out of large cities. When you move to a smaller community you have a larger say in the going ons of that community. Why deal with Daley’s shit when you can have a more responsive and intelligent mayor who actually has to worry about your votes.

What I’m waiting to see that one of my links talked about was Kenyan black market schools and I’m thinking it will happen in the US. I think we will start seeing these in the next 5-20 years in the US organized smartly as “home-schooling” as one constituency that no one fucks with is home schoolers(California tried, went down in flames). From a cash perspective and parental control point of view this is win-win. I’d imagine that they are operating or will start operating in places like Washington DC, Chicago and other places with a lack of charter schools. The article points out how parents forgo other expenses to get the money to put their kids in these schools. I’ve seen a single mom do such a thing in St. Louis so her daughters could go to the Catholic schools.

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[quote=“Okami”]
What I’m waiting to see that one of my links talked about was Kenyan black market schools and I’m thinking it will happen in the US. I think we will start seeing these in the next 5-20 years in the US organized smartly as “home-schooling” as one constituency that no one fucks with is home schoolers(California tried, went down in flames). From a cash perspective and parental control point of view this is win-win. I’d imagine that they are operating or will start operating in places like Washington DC, Chicago and other places with a lack of charter schools. The article points out how parents forgo other expenses to get the money to put their kids in these schools. I’ve seen a single mom do such a thing in St. Louis so her daughters could go to the Catholic schools.[/quote]

Perhaps we could make it easier for parents to make this decision…that would be a novel idea.

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[quote=“Okami”]It depends on the party and the area. Knocking out an unpopular mayor in a small town would be child’s play, but for someone like Daley, you’d have to purge the voting rolls of the dead, stop him from bussing in his people in style, gangbeat and rob his men who pass out “walking around money”, put him under a real intense federal investigation and have your own people watch the vote. Not undoable, but really really difficult. A city council member would be a much easier target. Hence the reason you hear of problems with big city schools and nothing at all about small city schools. :ponder: [/quote] Bob, tell him what he’s won. :bravo: God, since I’ve been back and went thru J-School, which required a far more scrutiny of the city playas, I do believe that the Feds, at least Pat Fitzgerald, has been looking high and lo for something to pin on Daley. I believe they came close in '06 with this thing called the Hired Truck Scandal, but like Bugs Bunny, Daley was :whistle:

[quote]Namahottie: You raise a good point about their being no republicans being around or even on the ballot. I put in the search term, republican party precinct chicago, and got this link: 44thwardgop.org/captains.php So it is probably doable. I expect to hear of you in your new job any day now. :wink: I’ve already illustrated what it would take to take out Daley. City council members are easier. :whistle:[/quote] Only one republican sits in council, but being GOP or Dem doesn’t make a difference. The whole lot of them are just farkkin pansies to Daley. Let me show you what happens when you say no to Daley:

Alderman says no to Daley :roflmao:
And to take out a council member you have to have just as much muscle. Or a good corruption case to make a difference.

[quote]1. Rich parents have a larger investment in their children and act accordingly[/quote] Yes. It’s called a 'tax base"

[quote]2. The lack of education in basic civics that afflicts most Americans now. The higher you are on the socio-economic scale the likelier you are to vote and be involved with your community.[/quote]Good point.

[quote]
3. Mobility, You can move to a good school district and you can bet your bottom dollar any good real estate agent knows the best schools in her area. I have a friend who pays through the nose for rent so her son will be in a smaller better school.[/quote]Second good point.

[quote]
9. Smaller communities, How often has the white flight been raised as a reason for the hollowing out of large cities. When you move to a smaller community you have a larger say in the going ons of that community. Why deal with Daley’s shit when you can have a more responsive and intelligent mayor who actually has to worry about your votes. [/quote]Not necessarily true. I grew up in Oak Park for a short period, and as diverse as they claim to be, blacks and other minorities were often, and still are, marginalized.

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Now lets get one thing straight, the Feds can’t investigate for shit. Check out what the feds do, they try to turn someone to give them the case. Real police work ain’t there thing, because they know once you are in their sights the unstoppable juggernaut of federal bureaucracy is on you and eventually it just makes sense to give up. Aren’t you the one saying Daley was a special ed kid and the feds can’t get him? Come the fuck on, how do you square that round hole?

As far as Daley threatening him, I’d have called him on it if I was that alderman. Basic conservatism 101 would of given you at least 3 options to counter downright blackmail.

Now I know the next part is going to make me look like the racist that I am, but no matter what you say, Fuck off, my kid, my life, my choices and as long as no one gets hurt, we’re all good.

I would not move into a predominately black neighborhood ever. I’m familiar enough with their politics and their families to know that the schools in their neighborhoods are more than likely going to be shit. I know a culture that blames everyone but themselves and makes pariahs of its own that dares to engage in self reflection is destined for something less than mediocrity. I would not move into a poor neighborhood either. My ideal community would be small predominantly white or asian with a scattering of other ethnicities who wanted their children raised in such an environment. I also wouldn’t mind a larger city if it had non-union charter schools that held rigorous standards.

Thinking on it, how do you separate class from race when some of it is cultural. Anecdotally, most of the successful black people that I know/knew where from families that moved into predominantly white neighborhoods.

[quote]Not necessarily true. I grew up in Oak Park for a short period, and as diverse as they claim to be, blacks and other minorities were often, and still are, marginalized.[/quote]How would you describe being marginalized? I’m asking out of blank curiosity.

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[quote=“Okami”].

I would not move into a predominately black neighborhood ever. I’m familiar enough with their politics and their families to know that the schools in their neighborhoods are more than likely going to be shit. I know a culture that blames everyone but themselves and makes pariahs of its own that dares to engage in self reflection is destined for something less than mediocrity.[/quote]

Yea it does make you look and sound racist. In fact it is. You could have saved yourself a few characters by just writing, blacks are lazy and incompetent. Which is what you’re saying. Your “familiarity” sounds based on outside views, negative ones at best. But keep holding them and make sure that you pass them on to your child and your Asian friends so that they also can have said views about blacks.

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Nama, please don’t misconstrue my words. I said I wouldn’t live in black neighborhoods, not that I hated black people.

Here’s a nice crap sandwich for liberals to eat:
online.wsj.com/article/SB124363939608167947.html

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[quote=“Okami”]I would not move into a predominately black neighborhood ever. I’m familiar enough with their politics and their families to know that the schools in their neighborhoods are more than likely going to be shit. I know a culture that blames everyone but themselves and makes pariahs of its own that dares to engage in self reflection is destined for something less than mediocrity. I would not move into a poor neighborhood either. My ideal community would be small predominantly white or Asian with a scattering of other ethnicities who wanted their children raised in such an environment. I also wouldn’t mind a larger city if it had non-union charter schools that held rigorous standards.
[/quote]

Damn man, you’re making a lot of assumptions there, and I don’t think you’re accurate at all. Let’s be real, nobody grows up wanting to move into a poor neighborhood. They are poor neighborhoods because no one wants to live there. But not wanting to live in a black neighborhood…I mean, the only all black neighborhoods are poor. Blacks who aren’t poor, don’t live in poor neighborhoods. They live in middle class or upper class neighborhoods. Maybe the question we should be asking is why poor neighborhoods are always racially segregated.

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[quote=“Okami”]Nama, please don’t misconstrue my words. I said I wouldn’t live in black neighborhoods, not that I hated black people.

Here’s a nice crap sandwich for liberals to eat:
online.wsj.com/article/SB124363939608167947.html[/quote]

why don’t you eat it. You words were offensive and hurtful, but none of that matters to you. Fine if you don’t want to live in “predominately” black neighborhoods. The point of the post again was to point out how class is going to be a major factor when it comes to education. But you keep bring up race. As if blacks have the majority stakehold on poverty,crime and all else negative that is highlighted in the media. :no-no:

What you’ve shown me is lack of true depth in your thinking. And stop using the liberals to scapegoat your behavior. Just face the dance. Either you’re in it to do something about it or to join the ranks of others who are going to go around using their poor behavior as a reason for continued entitlement.

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Exactly. Or why all neighborhoods are racially segregated period. I have no problem living with white. But I have notice thru American history that whites have a problem living among blacks. And since,yes I brought up race, look at this elephant in the room.

The whole point of the article wasn’t about whites afraid of their kids going near blacks. Although it could be construed that way since a majority of projects dwellers are black. But really it was about the dangers associated with the poverty level there. Again what kind of message are we send kids when we tell them it’s okay to fear someone because of their economic level?

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I love the part where you assume I’m completely ignorant of everything African American related.

I lived near East St. Louis and worked with a lot of people from there and the poor parts of St. Louis. First thing I said to my cop friend when he told me that they tore down the St. Louis projects is, “The crime rate went down didn’t it?” Which he only responded with a chuckle and, “Yes, it did.”

Now no matter how you try to square it; black culture is defined in modern American society as plagued by gangs(which you’ve talked about harassing kids going to school), illegitimacy(around 70% of black kids being born out of wedlock) and a resistance to education (can’t be acting white now :unamused: ). Now as a prospective home owner in the US in the future why would I want to put up with any of that shit? I already know how useless the cops can be on it. I also don’t want my mayor engaging in running gun battles in car chases (East St. Louis) nor bussing his voters in limousines serving champagne and chocolates to get elected despite being indicted (Washington Park). I mean how fucked up is it that you vote for Bull Connor’s party by a 89+% margin. Do we really want to discuss “walking around” money?

How about we talk about Bill Cosby, present pariah, for bringing up illegitimacy at a NAACP event, embarrassing Jesse Jackson and Mfume. How about we talk about the treatment given to Clarence Thomas? What about Thomas Sowell, ever heard of him? Al Sharpton starts race riots and isn’t laughed off the stage when he wants to run for president. :doh: Jesse Jackson says don’t use the n-word, but then gets caught on an open mike at Fox news of all places saying he wants to castrate Obama for talking down to “the same term he wants no one to use”. You can’t make this shit up. :roflmao:

Hell if I was black I’d move out of a black neighborhood to get away from that shit. That’s why they move to white neighborhoods. Hell well off educated black people will even be teased by their families for being an Oreo.

So you play that race card, let me know how far that gets you. Believe it or not conservatives care very much about what happens in the black community. We were with them when FDR wanted to institute a minimum wage(black newspapers were against it, you can chart a direct correlation between black unemployment and the rise in minimum wage, black rates of unemployment were equal to or less than white rates before the minimum wage was instituted). We share the same set of values as traditional black families. We care just as much about education and have great respect for historically black universities. We want to see all people succeed without regards to sex nor race.

So yes, call me a racist, but give me one damn good reason to move into a black neighborhood.

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I think the parents have every right to complain and demand something else. We’re talking about their tax dollars. If they pay more into the system, they should get more out of the system. That’s fair.

Anyway, here’s the thing I don’t get. Why do people anywhere put up with crime in their communities? If a tiny minority are indeed giving a majority a bad name and making life bad for them, why don’t the majority stand up for themselves? Why aren’t the parents’ putting a foot up their kids’ arses for being criminals? Why don’t they demand better schools? By better, I don’t mean more expensive anything. I just mean higher standards and an intolerance for those who would fuck it up for everyone else.

The second thing I don’t get is that even if they can’t improve the schools, why not go black market? There’s a black market solution for everything. Here’s just something off the top of my head, so I’m sure if it were thought through a bit, it could be improved and implemented.

Say you get eleven people together who are earning $20,000 p.a. each and they’re fed up with the local school. Ten of them chip in $2,000 each, either in cash or in kind (so they have to make some sacrifices, but big fucking deal, isn’t that what immigrants are mocked for when they live six families in a place but get ahead?) and pay the eleventh to homeschool all the children. Even if you have to pull every kid out of school one or two days per week to get around the authorities by still being officially enrolled in the local school.

Fuck, why don’t these people use any imagination? I have no sympathy for people who won’t try to change their lives, or those of their children, for the better.

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[quote=“GuyInTaiwan”]I think the parents have every right to complain and demand something else. We’re talking about their tax dollars. If they pay more into the system, they should get more out of the system. That’s fair.

Anyway, here’s the thing I don’t get. Why do people anywhere put up with crime in their communities? If a tiny minority are indeed giving a majority a bad name and making life bad for them, why don’t the majority stand up for themselves? Why aren’t the parents’ putting a foot up their kids’ arses for being criminals? Why don’t they demand better schools? By better, I don’t mean more expensive anything. I just mean higher standards and an intolerance for those who would fuck it up for everyone else.

The second thing I don’t get is that even if they can’t improve the schools, why not go black market? There’s a black market solution for everything. Here’s just something off the top of my head, so I’m sure if it were thought through a bit, it could be improved and implemented.

Say you get eleven people together who are earning $20,000 p.a. each and they’re fed up with the local school. Ten of them chip in $2,000 each, either in cash or in kind (so they have to make some sacrifices, but big fucking deal, isn’t that what immigrants are mocked for when they live six families in a place but get ahead?) and pay the eleventh to homeschool all the children. Even if you have to pull every kid out of school one or two days per week to get around the authorities by still being officially enrolled in the local school.

Fuck, why don’t these people use any imagination? I have no sympathy for people who won’t try to change their lives, or those of their children, for the better.[/quote]

If someone tried that I guarantee the authorities would shut it down. It’s not fair to say “these people” don’t have any imagination. It’s not their fault they don’t live in a free society where they could do that if they wanted to. Well, I guess you could say it’s a little their fault, but we’re all a bit at fault for that.

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There must be ways for them to homeschool en masse, or set up a charter school or something of the sort. Move if necessary, even interstate. That’s what I mean by use a little imagination. Really, is that too difficult a concept? As for paying someone to homeschool en masse, that’s why I said they could pay it via the black market. Fine, don’t pay in cash, but family A pays for the teacher’s rent, family B pays for the utilities, etc. Hell, even if it involves your kids turning up to class with a bag of groceries for the teacher. Is there anything illegal with “babysitting” someone else’s kids? Is there anything illegal with buying someone else food?

Like I said, use a little imagination. The authorities don’t have to know about it. There’s a lot the authorities don’t know about.

Also, I’m curious as to how poor Asian families manage to rise into the middle or upper class in one generation if it’s all so hard.