That’s a new one.
Suitable for the politcally charged blue-camp words.
Hopefully, one of these days some of the numerous charges will stick to Teflon Jimbo.
For those of you unfamiliar with that:
[quote]Although the KMT has said that its accusations against Soong were all the result of a “misunderstanding,” it is not up to the KMT alone to decide whether the case is open or closed.
The uproar surfaced in 1999 when the KMT pressed embezzlement and other criminal suits against Soong, saying he pocketed vast sums of party funds in his capacity as KMT secretary-general in the early 1990’s.
After prosecutors decided not to indict Soong two years ago, two lawyers representing the KMT asked to reopen the case, noting that investigators passed over key evidence and witnesses during their year-long probe.
Soong has said the money he is alleged to have bilked the KMT of, which was found in his son’s account in the KMT-owned Chung Hsing Bills Co, was put in his charge by then-president and party chairman Lee to carry out covert party missions. Lee has derided Soong’s claim as an outright lie.
From the Taipei Times[/quote]
Ya gotta love it. The KMT charges Jimbo with embezzlement and then says is was all a big misunderstanding and they kiss and form the pan-blue alliance.
Is there no honor among thieves? (rhetorical question)
Need I remind you again that I am not in the “blue camp”. If you have to hedge me into an ideological box, a more appropriate name would be the red camp.
I never intended to imply that you were blue, although I see how you got the impression.
So as a Chicom, are you one of the peasants who think collecting your fair share of night soil is the pinnacle of the exalted Five-Year Plans, or are you one of the privileged few at the top of the food chain, feeding imported Hostess Ding-Dongs to your rare koi (for which you paid the equivalent of 20 years’ salary of a peasant, but billed it to the “state”)?
[quote=“cmdjing”] The KMT had little hope of actually toppeling the CCP.[/quote] Sure they did. Toppling the communist government and establishing a stable government are entirely different things. The only thing that guaranteed that the KMT didn’t take advantage of the severe political instability that persisted within the PRC through the 50s and 60s was the Soviet A-bomb, which was still a threat even after the split. Tensions with the CCP aside, until the mid-60s there was no way in hell that the USSR would have tolerated any chance of an anti-communist government controlling the territory along its soft southern belly.
But it was Soviet assistance and the A-bomb that secured the victory. Without it, the civil war could have flared back up in a matter of months and no government would have had control. You are allowing the decades of communist control that came after to influence your assessment of what was before. With a stronger airforce and navy than what the communists could put together, the KMT was in a perfect position to harrass, probe and try to take a bite out of the communist controlled mainland for years. The only reason the civil war stopped was not because the communists had established such thorough control, but because the USSR and the US forced both sides to cool it out of fear that it would broaden into an international conflict.
An often used thesis with some truth, but extremely worn out. Before ranting about KMT incompetence, why don’t you compare the development of even the most developed areas of mainland China to Taiwan from 1950 all the way up until now. 99% of mainlanders still aren’t even close to the standard of living enjoyed by the average Taiwanese. Considering that you have never been able to visit Taiwan, you can be forgiven for being ignorant of that fact.
Why would you assume that I am ignorant of the Sino-Soviet split? Just because Sino-Soviet relations went frosty at the end of the 50s does not negate the fact that there is no way the communists would have maintained control of the mainland if Moscow had not backed them.
Not necessarily. If the US and USSR had not gotten involved and the KMT had been allowed to land again on the mainland, the most likely result would have been years if not decades more of civil war and independently governed swaths of territory. If the leaders of the US and USSR of the time could look back on the past from our vantage point, they probably would have just decided to step back and let the Chinese slug it out amonst each other. The alliance that the USSR formed with Beijing early on and the alliance that the US and Beijing formed later had no long term benefits for anyone but Beijing. Credit should surely be given to the communists for that.
[quote=“wolf_reinhold”]I never intended to imply that you were blue, although I see how you got the impression.
So as a Chicom, are you one of the peasants who think collecting your fair share of night soil is the pinnacle of the exalted Five-Year Plans, or are you one of the privileged few at the top of the food chain, feeding imported Hostess Ding-Dongs to your rare koi (for which you paid the equivalent of 20 years’ salary of a peasant, but billed it to the “state”)?[/quote]
I think that’s a bit excessive. He has generally been polite and even-tempered on this forum and I don’t see the need to be so rude. Though I strongly disagree with most of his views, cmjding is no ac_dropout. At least he bothers to put an argument together and makes an effort to egage in rational debate. I think he deserves the same from you.
Look, I think we all know the outcome of this little exercise will just mean little Jimmy (somehow - and AGAIN) gets off the hook. It would be nice if justice were served, but alas, this is Taiwan, and criminals of his stature seem to be rewarded rather than punished.[/quote]
Indeed we do, but can’t we just forget all this negativity and savor this for a second? If I may use an analogy from an earlier day, before you snort your cocaine you don’t obsess about how it’s going to be gone in an hour
[quote=“Jive Turkey”][quote=“cmdjing”] The KMT had little hope of actually toppeling the CCP.[/quote] Sure they did. Toppling the communist government and establishing a stable government are entirely different things. The only thing that guaranteed that the KMT didn’t take advantage of the severe political instability that persisted within the PRC through the 50s and 60s was the Soviet A-bomb, which was still a threat even after the split. Tensions with the CCP aside, until the mid-60s there was no way in hell that the USSR would have tolerated any chance of an anti-communist government controlling the territory along its soft southern belly.
But it was Soviet assistance and the A-bomb that secured the victory. Without it, the civil war could have flared back up in a matter of months and no government would have had control. You are allowing the decades of communist control that came after to influence your assessment of what was before. With a stronger airforce and navy than what the communists could put together, the KMT was in a perfect position to harrass, probe and try to take a bite out of the communist controlled mainland for years. The only reason the civil war stopped was not because the communists had established such thorough control, but because the USSR and the US forced both sides to cool it out of fear that it would broaden into an international conflict.
An often used thesis with some truth, but extremely worn out. Before ranting about KMT incompetence, why don’t you compare the development of even the most developed areas of mainland China to Taiwan from 1950 all the way up until now. 99% of mainlanders still aren’t even close to the standard of living enjoyed by the average Taiwanese. Considering that you have never been able to visit Taiwan, you can be forgiven for being ignorant of that fact.
Why would you assume that I am ignorant of the Sino-Soviet split? Just because Sino-Soviet relations went frosty at the end of the 50s does not negate the fact that there is no way the communists would have maintained control of the mainland if Moscow had not backed them.
Not necessarily. If the US and USSR had not gotten involved and the KMT had been allowed to land again on the mainland, the most likely result would have been years if not decades more of civil war and independently governed swaths of territory. If the leaders of the US and USSR of the time could look back on the past from our vantage point, they probably would have just decided to step back and let the Chinese slug it out amonst each other. The alliance that the USSR formed with Beijing early on and the alliance that the US and Beijing formed later had no long term benefits for anyone but Beijing. Credit should surely be given to the communists for that.[/quote]
Simply put, I think your analysis of the Chinese Civil War is wrong and your arguement a series of leaps in conclusions and a petty attempt to marginalize the role of the Communist Party. However this thread is not the place to argue it and I would be willing to continue it in another thread. As for KMT incompetance, it was precisely due to this that the KMT lost to the communists despite having a large material advantage. That the CCP eventually engaged in disastrous socialist policies later on is irrelevant to this arguement, but simply rhetorical sniping that is an ersatz substitute for an actual response.
Simply put, I think your [Jive Turkey’s] analysis of the Chinese Civil War is wrong and your arguement a series of leaps in conclusions and a petty attempt to marginalize the role of the Communist Party. However this thread is not the place to argue it and I would be willing to continue it in another thread. As for KMT incompetance, it was precisely due to this that the KMT lost to the communists despite having a large material advantage. That the CCP eventually engaged in disastrous socialist policies later on is irrelevant to this arguement, but simply rhetorical sniping that is an ersatz substitute for an actual response.[/quote]
The KMT incompetence as a primary factor for losing the civil war is beyond question. To debate otherwise is simply a non-starter.
[quote=“Spack”]So Soong has to pay NT 90 million in unpaid taxes or do six months in the slammer. I wonder which one he’ll choose.
NT90 mill must be pocket change to Soong.[/quote]
You’ll be suprise how much the currupt blues are afraid of getting in the slammer. Just go see how Chou-Yi was crying his heart out during a press conference when he heard that he might have to sit in jail for a year or two for leading a truck that stormed into a crowd of police during 320 post-election protest.
“This is a unfair political prosecution” He cried “The Green-Terror is suppressing us”
[quote=“Chou-yi”]
“The Green-Terror is suppressing us”[/quote]
This sort of talk really pisses me off :fume: It’s an insult to those who were murdered, tortured, exiled and destroyed by CCK and his goons. Disgusting. Human trash. Jail is too good for scum like that.
interesting dialogue between jt and cmj above; i agree cmj is a class above ac dropkick and provides an interesting insight into mainland orthodox thinking. the one common theme of course is KMT incompetence and corruption. interesting that the worlds richest political party has contrived to lose china and is now mere months away from what could be a watershed loss in taiwan that would hand the yuan and the presidency to the upstart dpp and probably consign them to the garbage heap of history (ok mayor ma might be a trump card down the road). whats really fascinating tho’ is that the big boys continue to rake in the cash as the party goes down the toilet; one wonders at what stage they’ll cut their losses and flee the island…
The pan blue guys have been doing it for quite a while. So “cutting their losses” isn’t new; it’s an on-going process. It was reported that after the elections, Cathay Bank was transferring USD $10mil per day to their local Southern California branches. As I’ve always said, this isn’t a big secret how the pan-blue folks think about things, they’re voting with their money - money in the US, money tied up in investments in China.
It’s typical politics, here. The blue folks kicked the green folks for a long while and now the green folks are getting their kicks in. Next election, if the blue wins, the cycle gets repeated but probably with a little more viciousness.
I agree that the term is now so commonly twisted and used by the blue side, they even wrote a song on the "green-terror* that it really show a complete lack of respect for the histories and people.
Why do they so easily cry foul?
What had A-Bian ever done to them?
Why do so many people believe in these bulls?
If I may use an analogy from an earlier day, before you snort your cocaine you don’t obsess about how it’s going to be gone in an hour