Although we are arguing, I feel we are not. :shock: Maybe we are from different backgrounds, and read different meanings on the same words, or focus on different parts of sentences.
Sigh Communication is not easy. My mindset needs more adjustment to be able to connect others. :mrgreen:
I do not see codeswtiching as a sin in communication.
See similar discussion here:
chinese-forums.com/viewtopic … highlight=
I think it’s all depend on the attitude of the codeswitcher. Does he really do it for showing off his je ne sais quoi or he just use it out of necessity.
I codeswitched alot depending on my audience, however, the most frequent tendency was that I’m at a loss for Chinese words and used English words to replace them. As a result, some Chinese speakers doesn’t know what the hell I was talking about. This was very alarming at early stage of my language acquisition. To be able to speak with considerable flow in target language. I usually replace whatever word I do not know with words I know English or other languages known to the counterlocutor.
Of course people have different opinions. Some think of this as pretentious. But sometimes you need to be pretentious too, to get things done. Back in Jakarta, I saw people speak with almost 90% of english words in their speeech, only the outer grammar frame is Indonesian plus the speech mark of lah, dong, etc. In japan, modern literature like article in fashion magazine has 90% words borrowed from English and French. I’ve seen a site on the web that scrutinized on this matter.
My exgf’s mom doesn’t really bother about acquiring more indonesian vocabulary. She told me “what the heck!, I get by with all the english words and they love it.” I got nothing more to say to her at that time.
The fact that “English rules the waves” and it’s pillagering all other languages is so true.
I got one other point. During early stage of language acquisition. You need to cross register alot to enable your learning the target language. When I mixed with the filipino maid. I speak to them in English and ocassionaly changed to Tagalog. I did the same with other languages that I learned.
ax
“Code-switching” happened to me soemtimes when I go to school talk to my teachers in English. Chinese just come out of my mouth naturly, same thing goes to when I go home talk to my parents. It usually happens to me when I talk to fast. But this do not happen to me often, it only happenes couple weeks after I arrived the States or Taiwan.
There is another edge to the code-switching problem: We do technical translations, and I tell my translators to generally translate everything (ok, we’ve given up on terms like CD etc.). However, the other day, we had to do a technical translation in a highly specialised field. And after the first third of the translation, the customer’s proofreader complained about us translating too many terms to Chinese. He wanted us to keep a lot of terms in English, arguing that in the field (semiconductors in the broadest range), everybody could speak English anyway and was used to using English terms. However, he was unable to provide us with a list of terms he wanted to keep in English, and we had the big problem to decide which terms to keep in English and which ones to translate. He even asked us to keep terms that have perfect Chinese counterparts like PC. How do you usually deal with things like that, Ironlady?
On the private aspect: I think everybody who lives in a multilingual environment tends to code-switch, especially when talking to closely related people. I used to have an English flatmate back in Germany, and the language that had evolved after living together for some time was probably incomprehensible for both English- and German-speakers who didn’t live with us. Don’t even couples with the same mothertongue often develop their own language?
Iris
[quote=“iris”] The customer’s proofreader complained about us translating too many terms to Chinese. He wanted us to keep a lot of terms in English…However, he was unable to provide us with a list of terms he wanted to keep in English…How do you usually deal with things like that, Ironlady?
[/quote]
Tell them up front that you want an approved list. If they do not provide it, you will be happy to make any changes later on…but of course, the normal hourly editing fee for nonsubstantive changes (aka “authors’ alterations”) will apply. They don’t usually do it twice… 
Bwahahahaha!
Geez, some people are awfully quick to judge and jump down the throat of others. My wife quite often slips English words into her Mandarin. It is often because she can’t THINK of the Mandarin word…she can think of the Hakka word (which is her native language, and the one spoken by most of the people who live around us). I think some people forget that Mandarin is a second language that an awful lot of people. Maybe this is just hick country, but my mother-in-law speaks no Mandarin–only Hakkanese and Japanese (although she refuses to speak the latter).
Communication is the main point, and if the person you are communicating with is bilingual it is often more efficient to insert the word in the language that comes to mind rather than stopping the flow of communication with a lot of ummmms and errrs and what was that word???s…
It is kind of bizare that after living in the U.S. for 6-7 years and coming back here, people think SHE is a foreigner because her Mandarin pronunciation has changed significantly…me? They are tipped off right away when they see a big white guy walk up 
.
Single-word-mid-sentence-code-switching is annoying. My Wife does it countless times each day. She says that a lot of people in Taiwan are like her; many people do so to show they are “with it.”
Well, I still Love her. (She makes some kick-butt, American style pizza.)
Remember the thread about English words that have taken on different meanings through incorrect usage by Mandarin speakers? (VCR, VCD, happy, many others)
That is even more frustrating to hear.
Ironlady, what is their reason for speaking that way? Have they told you personally?
Funny no one has mentioned the Kings and Queens of the Code Switch in Taiwan, Taiwanese singers. They all seem to drop in a word of English here and there. It’s annoying.
No English singer drops in some Chinese to be cool well maybe CoCo Lee…hmmm
Example: That little corporate sell out Machi Didi say “Good Morning” and “E-Learning” in his little commercial for Hinet.
When will it end?
That’s probably because Chinese isn’t ‘cool’ 
“This is where I long to be, La Isla Bonita”
“Living La Vida Loca”
“When the moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that’s amore”
Granted, this is often influenced by the factor of the singer’s own ethnic background (unlike Taiwanese singers), but it’s still used for ‘effect’.
Oh c’mon now … Machi Didi is adoreable, and you can’t really blame a 13 year old kid for “selling out”. Considering he can barely speak Mandarin, yet can 饒舌 (some “code-switching” for ya ) at such amazing speeds, I think is quite impressive.
But back to the code-switching thing, I always hear the excuse of “I can’t think of the Chinese word” or “the English word is easier to say”, in some cases I think this is true, but only for very specialized terminology. For example, studying the martial arts, taijiquan, qigong, kyusho-jutsu, etc., there are a lot of specialized terminology that honestly don’t have English equivalents (like “qi” or “yin & yang”). However, that’s completely different from things I hear all the time like:
Meiguoren hen “open” (Americans are very open). There are several Chinese words that can be used to express this idea (and they’re not difficult to pronounce either), so the above two excuses don’t work.
Wo xiang ba zhege zhanghu “close” diao (I want to close this account). Again, saying “close” is no easier than using Chinese.
Back here in the States, even after living in Taiwan for 3 years and speaking Chinese most of the time, I don’t find it difficult to think of an English word and have no need (or reason) to code-switch when speaking with my friends, so I think the above excuses for the Taiwanese doing it are ridiculous. But on the other hand, it’s their language and they can do with it what they want … it just sometimes makes it frustrating for those of us who are trying to learn the language and don’t want to hear English words popping up constantly and for no other apparent reason other than that there’s a foreigner around.
I have to agree with LittleBuddaTW on this one. I codeswitch English/French only when the French word is significantly superior (genre, gaudy) and never for common words like “zhanghu ‘close’ diao”. Constant dropping of Japanese from the office secretary has pushed me off the fence on codeswitching (she is fleunt in Mandarin and English but not Japanese). Unintelligble and annoying.
Oh c’mon now … Machi Didi is adoreable, and you can’t really blame a 13 year old kid for “selling out”. Considering he can barely speak Mandarin, yet can 饒舌 (some “code-switching” for ya ) at such amazing speeds, I think is quite impressive.
But back to the code-switching thing, I always hear the excuse of “I can’t think of the Chinese word” or “the English word is easier to say”, in some cases I think this is true, but only for very specialized terminology. For example, studying the martial arts, taijiquan, qigong, kyusho-jutsu, etc., there are a lot of specialized terminology that honestly don’t have English equivalents (like “qi” or “yin & yang”). However, that’s completely different from things I hear all the time like:
Meiguoren hen “open” (Americans are very open). There are several Chinese words that can be used to express this idea (and they’re not difficult to pronounce either), so the above two excuses don’t work.
Wo xiang ba zhege zhanghu “close” diao (I want to close this account). Again, saying “close” is no easier than using Chinese.
Back here in the States, even after living in Taiwan for 3 years and speaking Chinese most of the time, I don’t find it difficult to think of an English word and have no need (or reason) to code-switch when speaking with my friends, so I think the above excuses for the Taiwanese doing it are ridiculous. But on the other hand, it’s their language and they can do with it what they want … it just sometimes makes it frustrating for those of us who are trying to learn the language and don’t want to hear English words popping up constantly and for no other apparent reason other than that there’s a foreigner around.[/quote]
You must be blessed with an incredible memory 
. NO ONE speaks English out here (well, there IS my wife, but after 12 years of 99% Chinese communication, speaking English to each other seems like an unnatural act), and I don’t get into the gringo ghettos much, and I definitely forget English words now and again. What really irks me is when the Spanish word pops to mind (have not spoken THAN for 30 odd years, what the heck is it still doing there?).
I guess MY point is, what is it to a gringo how someone chooses to communicate? There are much better things to waste time being irritated at (like the yahoo who didn’t hit his brakes on time and caused a 45 minute traffic jam on the freeway entrance ramp). I’d guess that none ofthe people complaining about this have actually discussed it with the people who are doing the code-“switching.” Try it, discussing it in a non-superior, non-judgemental fashion and y’all might learn sumptin’ 
:mrgreen: .
Yes, I have discussed it with them in a non-threatening way. The defensive reactions I get suggest that it is all a bunch of hooey to show off their English. And IMHO it IS my business if these people are code-switching while they’re talking to ME.
Another annoying thing: the “you know, I haven’t spoken a single word of English to you throughout our entire interaction, we have just discussed international economics for 15 minutes with no problems, and yet you insist in speaking to me in your only-marginally-understandable, broken English while talking about commonplace topics” phenomenon.
Language choice is a complex phenomenon, but normally it is accepted that in situations where there is a power differential or where there is a need for one party to please the other – i.e., this include interactions in situations where it’s a service provider talking to a customer – the party who needs to please (the service provider) should take the customer’s cue as to which language to carry on using. I can forgive an initial try in English in response to a foreign face – although an attempt at Mandarin would be more palatable. But keeping on doggedly with the offensively poor English is unacceptable. 
Racially charged name-calling? Is this for real or just flame-bait?
Racially charged name-calling? Is this for real or just flame-bait?[/quote]
No, its a common term in the Domincan Republic (and has been for as long as I can remember, at least 30 years), not flame bait, for a phenomenon that I first noticed in The Dominican Republic and Puerto Rico…that a percentage of Americans (like Chinese, or really anyone else) often gather together and live in a particular area. I honestly don’t know where they are anymore, as I don’t get out of my little mountain cave (a gringo ghetto for one ) much (well, okay, so it is a house, not a cave, but with the cold the last week, I’m beginning to think a cave would be warmer, at least the bats would generate body heat)…
…egad, 10 years ago, the ones I knew about were Tien Mu (probably still heavily populated by foreigners) in Taipei and Champaigne Villiage in Hsinchu (asked, and now no one has heard of it…funny how entire areas disapear when you aren’t paying attention, which is most of the time for me).
These concentrations of people from the same country are a naturally occurring thing, especially when people have not fully adjusted to the local culture…unfortunately, they also (in my opinion) often PREVENT adjustment to the local culture as they sometimes reinforce and “us and them” way of thinking. You can see it in Chinatowns in the U.S. and gringo ghettos (is there a better term? this one I stole from the Dominicans)…
No offense intended, just a word to describe a real phenomenon .
By the way, are there still large numbers of foreigners concentrated in Tien Mu? There used to be (10-15 years ago) a really good place to get a malt near TAS, but I’d imagine it is gone (haven’t really wandered Tien Mu since 1992 or 1993).
[quote=“ironlady”]Yes, I have discussed it with them in a non-threatening way. The defensive reactions I get suggest that it is all a bunch of hooey to show off their English. And IMHO it IS my business if these people are code-switching while they’re talking to ME.
Another annoying thing: the “you know, I haven’t spoken a single word of English to you throughout our entire interaction, we have just discussed international economics for 15 minutes with no problems, and yet you insist in speaking to me in your only-marginally-understandable, broken English while talking about commonplace topics” phenomenon.
Language choice is a complex phenomenon, but normally it is accepted that in situations where there is a power differential or where there is a need for one party to please the other – i.e., this include interactions in situations where it’s a service provider talking to a customer – the party who needs to please (the service provider) should take the customer’s cue as to which language to carry on using. I can forgive an initial try in English in response to a foreign face – although an attempt at Mandarin would be more palatable. But keeping on doggedly with the offensively poor English is unacceptable. [/quote]
Point one, I’ll give you, but letting people be themselves and accepting mildly irritating things as part life tends to make for much more pleasant interpersonal relations, IMHO , however…to each his/her own 
.
Point two…people need to use language to improve, and their motivations for doing it ought not be second guessed…to me, what may be marginally understandable to someone else is perfectly clear and through a few hundred interactions like this, the language will improve (after 6 months, I threw away the Chinese text book and learned Chinese through exactly this method, simply trying to communicate…eventually it happens).
Point three…whenever I see the prase “…it is accepted…” I usually follow by “yeah, sure…in the west.” “Offensively poor English.” Well, I have never heard “offensively poor English.” I’ve heard “poor English,” but I have never been offended by it. At one point, I spoke “poor Chinese” but through the patience of hundreds, maybe thousands, of people, fluency occurred. This is exactly the judgemental attitude that has had some of my closer friends say to me “Why is it that you are so much nicer than the rest of the foreigners in Taiwan? They get offended/angry so easily.” After thinking about it for a while, and realized that what they were getting at is that I let people be who they are, and don’t get miffed if someone does something a particular way that I think could be done better a different way . My way is not the only way, nor the best way in many cases…it is just, my way…I do admit to watching numerous things happen and having to consiously hold my eyebrow in position, perfectly even with the other one, because it REALLY wanted to rise somewhere near my hairline 
. But, I simply reminded myself that what I was observing was as valid a way of doing as the way that I would have done it .
Well, just for the record, I’m talking about professionals, or people who consider themselves to be professionals – language professionals. People who make their living going between (hopefully not AMONG) Chinese and English. So, I stand by all the points I have made above.
And yes, to me it IS offensive if there is no reason on the big green earth to speak English to me, we have been getting along just fine in Chinese for the past 20 minutes on a variety of topics, and suddenly the other person just “has” to speak English – well, I assume what is coming out of that mouth is some kind of English, although it’s incomprehensible. I am not an English teacher, and the point of our interaction is NOT to improve the language skills of either one. If I want to be assured of an all-Chinese environment, I either get a class or hang out with professionals (but see paragraph one, above!). I am not a free language laboratory for people who are unable to USE English to communicate effectively. Sound hard? Maybe. But after 10 years getting this crap, I’m sick of it. I don’t expect anyone to speak Tagalog to me (I’m a beginner) – I pay to practice with someone. The only time I actually speak Tagalog is if the person I’m trying to talk to speaks less English than I do Tagalog (rare but it happens occasionally) because the idea is to exchange information, not “practice” in those situations.
I’ll pop in on this… flame at will.
Code-switching. And here I just called it family. If you consider code-switching to be bad, y’all should sit around when my family speaks. My parents speak Taiwanese, Mandarin, Japanese, and English. We “code-switch” between the 4 all the time, though the japanese only for certain phrases. Friends who have come over and listened to me speak with my folks usually say, “WTF?” I argee with, a few posts previously, what’s-his-handle that Taiwanese are more apt to code switch because it’s been exposed to so many more other cultural influence, albeit more than a few forcibly. And some of those carry-on and over. It doesn’t help other Overseas chinese come over here with their lesser mandarin skills code-switch because they have to. Some may mistake this as being cool. roll
I understad ironlady’s point about professionals. And those who try to be pretentious as stated by others. But, I forget who talked about him and his roommate as it was in the middle of the posts somewhere, between close friends the code-switching I think is neither pretentious nor offensive. I see it more like the “secret phrases” of good friends. Just comes naturally.
Oh, lord. I’m just listening to this radio program. This woman’s talking about her trips to Spain.
The thing is, this woman cannot begin speaking in her flawless articulate Mandarin without saying the English word “Well,”
Well…
I like her voice. She and the host have a nice natural balance. There aren’t too many 'mm-hmm’s (I hate those - “mmm… mm-hmm…mmm…mmh-hmm…” very unprofessional and annoying)
It’s just that little English sprinkle; that anglo-saxon cherry on top; that little pretentious poop that she has to squeek out before she can speak to us about all her shallow and dumb generalizations in her flawless and articulate Mandarin.
Written word-dropping is probably more understandable. Why write 34 (I think, probably wrong, but I know it’s a lot) strokes for xie xie, when a simple ‘thanks’ suffices? Admittedly, this is somewhat limited, based on the other person’s reading ability, and where does one draw the line on what can be used, when, where etc.
I like using the English translations of Chinese words : sweet-sweet-circle (doughnut), invisible glasses (contact lenses), electric brain (computer), wait one down (hold on) that sort of thing.
Foreigners word-dropping Chinese when speaking to other foreigners is amusing, especially for us non-speakers. Okay, my Chinese is similar to a 6 year old driving a car, inasmuch as I can get it going, but there’s going to be big problems very soon, and I need someone else to help me stop
(huh?)
. But, having to sit there and listen to some guy…
Him: “…blah blah English English blah blah English English so yeah, anyways, it’s made me feel, like, really hai-how, ya know, and this is a real problem, ya know, winti.” 