Plus ca change

With all the nay saying about our presence in Iraq, it’s worth noting that none of these difficulties are particularly new. No postwar occupation has been without serious challenges, including the occupation of Germany after World War II. The New York Times ran a series of news stories in late 1945 reporting, in part, the following:

“Germans Reveal Hate of Americans,” October 31, 1945

The German attitude toward the American occupation forces has swung from apathy and surface friendliness to active dislike. According to a military government official, this is finding expression in the organization of numerous local anti-American organizations throughout the zone and in a rapid increase in the number of attacks on American soldiers. There were more such attacks in the first week of October than in the preceding five months of the occupation, this source declared.
This official views the situation as so serious that he and others are protesting the withdrawal of 1,600 experienced military-government officers form the German governments on township, county and regional levels between Nov. 1 and Dec. 15. “We have been talking since the summer about the trouble that we expect this winter,” the source said. "That trouble has now begun and we meet it with a plan to withdraw officers from communities where trouble is already being encountered.

“Loss of Victory in Germany Through U.S. Policy Feared,” November 18, 1945

Grave concern was expressed today by informed officials that the United States might soon lose the fruits of victory in Germany through the failure to prepare adequately for carrying out its long-term commitments under the Potsdam Declaration. Government failures were attributed in part to public apathy. The predictions of a coming crisis are predicated upon three points:

  1. The failure to start training a civilian corps of administrators to take over when the Army’s Military Government pulls out of Germany by June 1.

  2. The failure of the Government to set up an expert advisory group, such as that which existed in the Foreign Economic Administration’s Enemy Branch to back up the American administrators of Germany with informed advice and provide a focal point in Washington for policy-making on the German question.

  3. The failure of the Allies to decide together, or the United States for itself, the crucial economic question raised by the Potsdam Declaration; namely what level of German economic activity is desired over the long term?

“Germans Declare Americans Hated,” December 3, 1945

An exhaustive compilation of opinions of Germans in all walks of life on their reaction to the United States occupation of their country was released this afternoon from the confidential status under which it was submitted to officials of the United States Forces in the European Theatre recently.
Bitter resentment and deep disappointment was voiced over the Americans’ first six months of occupation, though there was some praise for the improvements in transportation, health conditions, book publishing and entertainment.

“German Election Set In Towns of U.S. Zone,” December 19, 1945

United States Seventh Army headquarters announced today that plans had been completed for initial German elections in January at Gemuende. A statement said that a vast majority of Germans remained passive in attitude toward politics and displayed no disposition to take over civic responsibilities.
I think we can agree that the postwar occupation of Germany, and the rest of Europe, worked out quite well, despite numerous difficulties and the best efforts of the New York Times to highlight them

Fred, serious question, what timeline are you going to put on whether it is successful or not, and what are the determining factors in deciding that success.

If the timeline is another year, and the measure is as simple as whether Iraq has its own elected government, that can manage all aspects of Iraqi life without the constant threat of civil unrest and uprising, then i will happily lay a bet of a pizza and beer at Alleycats that it will not be successful.

Traveller:

What nation in the Middle East does not face the danger of civil unrest?

I will take that bet and would be happy to eat at your expense at Alleycat’s but I want to make the following conditions.

Iraq will have successful elections as scheduled, but the violence will continue. Where in the Middle East has it not? But it will be manageable and will not affect economic growth. After all, this year is still going to post 35%.

Are we on?

Fred, that is not anything worth wagering on, i already granted that elections would be held - will be forced if necessary, you are now agreeing that violence will escalate as well.
So the wager would simply be on whether it is manageable and does not affect economic growth.
How to prove that one way or the other. Violence will always have an impact on growth, how to prove that economic growth would have been higher if the violence was not taking place.

But it is nice to see that that if it potentially means you putting hand in pocket, then you can mange to have a somewhat more realistic view of the world.

Traveller,

I think your placing a one year time limit was unrealistic. So, can we say the same about you… i.e., it is nice to see that that if it potentially means you putting hand in pocket, then you can mange to have a somewhat more realistic view of the world… or can we say that? One year is, IMO, quite unrealistic.

TM, nice to see you sticking your two cents worth in.

Had Fred replied timescale is to short, then i could agree but he did not. I set the one year as beyond that i might not be in Taiwan to collect or pay up as the case might be.

As for having a realistic view on things, i normally do !! :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

I’m opinionated.

[quote=“Traveller”]Had Fred replied timescale is to short, then I could agree but he did not. I set the one year as beyond that i might not be in Taiwan to collect or pay up as the case might be.

As for having a realistic view on things, i normally do !! :slight_smile: :slight_smile:[/quote]

OK.

One might argue that the gap between Germans and Americans is closer than between Americans and Middle Easterners on account of culture, and religion, language, history, etc.

We know bless you :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Actually the German and American views have long been VERY different. I would say that Germany in World War II was closer to the Middle East today. In fact, the Middle East governments that you see today adopted the German template in existence under Hitler. What is the difference between the hatred of Jews so common to Germans (then), and Arabs and Spook today. Then there is the fanaticism, the violence, the drive to conquer, the mass killings and torture chambers and secret development of weapons systems against treaty obligations. Germany lives on in the Middle East today. Thank God the rest of the world has adopted the “evil” American system of freedom, democracy and capitalism.

America can be proud of civilizing Germany and bringing freedom and democracy to Latin countries like Italy and Spain and Portugal and Greece and Turkey and now Eastern Europe as well as many nations in Latin America and almost all of Eastern Asia. Germany’s legacy is the dysfunctional mess that you see in the Islamofascist governments of the Middle East today. Something to be real proud of. Ideas. Poisonous ideas.

Specious and sneering aside: even as they spearchucked Juden into pits the Germans revered Beethoven, Wagner, Goethe, Nietzche et al. Their middle eastern equivalents are…whom?

Obviously I need not point out that cultural sophistication has little or no bearing upon ethical, moral or humanitarian goodness. Though I have indeed just pointed that out.