[[ -- Poll added! -- ]] Criticism of government over Morakot

[b]TYPHOON RELIEF IF YOU ARE IN TAIWAN THROUGH KARMA RELIEF ORGANIZATION: Donate dried/canned food, drinks, clothing, children’s books/games etc. at Hell’s Kitchen, No. 1, Civic Blvd.,Sec.5, OR SAPPHO… B1,1, Lane 102, Sec 1, Anhe Road after 9pm. Also, they apparently need vehicles to transport people and aid. Contact Xiao Lour.

You can donate toward typhoon relief online through World Vision Taiwan.
ei-payment.worldvision.org.tw/of … ef&orgid=1[/b]

That being said, CNN said last night that Morakot was a “ONCE IN A 200-YEAR RAIN EVENT.” Hard to deal with that! But I agree, Ma should have declared a nat’l emergency, for starters. And there were many, many things he could have done better… At least he didn’t call in armed mercenaries like Bush did, though, to keep all the ‘looters’ in line… pretty eerie, that.
I recall how Chen as Taipei mayor did far more than Ma did. Ma did just about nothing as Taipei mayor, just lookin’ pretty. Actions… speak… louder…
PS: I’m a little surprised the foreign media is actually ALL OVER this one…Past disasters usually didn’t get any int’l coverage at all. That’s good news!

I can’t believe Frank Hsieh would have been worse than Ma, and I think he could easily have been better.

[quote=“Mucha Man”]
As for the fact that the response is as inept as anywhere else, well, just imagine if this was in your country. You would never have that thought. Some of us consider this place their home and are having appropriate levels of anger, frustration and bewilderment.

In any case, nothing will ever remove the ugly images of a president who couldn’t show as much compassion for his people as the dictators across the Strait for theirs.[/quote]
I may have only lived here for a year, but I’m planning on staying the rest of my life so about calling this home, your are right, not yet but it will come…
That being said remember the tsunami a couple of years ago my country lost 1800 citizens and my gov did jackshit that time (my post would have fitted them perfectly), but we are not questioning the actions of my gov right now (they are not the ones that f**ed up this time, anyways).
Can you show me anyone in TW that do not feel “levels of anger, frustration and bewilderment” about this whole deal…

The reconstruction is going to be even more difficult.
Yesterday I went to visit a donation center together with my friends. They ask the victims if they want to rebuild in their old address and place since the area now is a graveyard and bodies are underneath their old destroyed homes.
One of the victims told us that she needs to rebuild exactly at the same place because her relatives’s souls need to return and visit her so she was going to fight (if necessary) to return and live at the same old place to be together with her dead relatives. Some don’t want to build there because there are dead bodies underneath, they want to make a memorial monument in these areas. And many are considering to move to more urbanized cities like Kaohsiung, Taichung or Taipei.

Fixed.

I know that we Latinos sometimes go overboard and everything, but it feels kind of weird that there is not like this, at least, “scene” or montage of general concern and mourning.

I was just reading that in Panama there was what is considered a big traffic accident, and 24 people died. Hence, the government has declared “3 days of introspection”, as a sign of respect towards the victims and their families.

Even if its just words, they matter. Might not fix the roads nor pay the medical bills, but it soothes.

The problem with Ma is he did not learn anything from Hurrican Katrina. When facing a natural disaster like this, he should have been on TV 24/7 telling people how he is getting thing ready before the disaster and how he is mobilizing all resources after the disaster. It probably would not make any difference on the outcomes, but it certainly would be good PR. (Just look at how the Louisiana’s EX-governor did with Katrina and how the current governor does with every hurricane since :laughing: )

He also should have designated a person to handle the central command and coordination of all the rescue efforts. Then, Ma could appear on TV everyday and say he just spoke with the commander, and this is what is being done: rescue, relocation, shelter, etc. etc. Got any specific questions, defer the questions to the PR guy for the central command.

Symbols matter, and Taiwanese instinctively feel anger when they see a Waishengren Presdient failing to show sorrow on TV over a crisis in the south. People here remember their history, which is one of prioritizing northern development over the south. You came when this imbalance was just beginning to be fixed but it was stark even a decade ago.

Ma is just under a generation of KMT officials that actively suppressed the Taiwanese language and local culture and never considered this place home. During the last election people thought Ma himself was some kind of post ethnic figure (like Obama) but this event, coming on the heals of the flag suppression during Chen Yunlin’s visit, the overtures to beijing’s needs during the melamine scandal, Ma’s own claims that the ROC emcompasses lands and peoples that did not vote him into power, and so on, has people questioning the loyalty of the president to the country that he was voted to represent.

A simple thing as the president using the word “they” and not “we” has huge implications for Taiwanese. I was out with blue voting friends tonight and this was something they focused on. Words. Simple words and actions that strike people as symbolic of larger meanings.

Some may laugh at the thought that this will hurt the KMT in the next election but then why did Chen’s corruption lose the presidency for the DPP? Expectations. Perceptions.

Ma has fucked up a number of times this year: the flag, melamine, the Dalai Lama visit, and more than I can remember. He is going to continue to fuck up over the coming years in large symbolic ways. The flooding won’t be on everyone’s minds so clearly in 3 years (though is will be in the south as reconstruction will be slow) but there will be something else.

Ma is losing the trust of the centre and his enemies on both sides are going to see that he never regains it.

I have to agree with the looney greens on their criticism of Ma’s handling of this disaster.

Is Ma trying to be the next George Bush? His political capital could very likely diminish after this disaster, decreasing support for his cross-Strait policies; in much the same way Katrina eroded Bush’s political capital to the point of no return.

Wen Jiabao and Rudy Giuliani never had a world class education like Ma or the Yale-educated Bush, but Wen and Giuliani’s leadership shined through during the Sichuan earthquake and 9/11.

So much for compulsory military service in Taiwan. If you require all Taiwanese males to join the military, at least utilize their time and service when disasters like these occur.

Yeah… It’s a shame. =.= The U.S. offered to help and was declined (-in the media, no response, but I can tell). :frowning: Reminds me of Burma’s typhoon disaster and how stubborn/stupid those junta are [strike]should be kicked out[/strike]. (And of course, not to forget Indonesia…)

I’m glad more international spotlight is being placed on Taiwan. (Even though, this isn’t the spotlight I was hoping for… >.<) R.I.P. victims! This event only breaks down Ma’s barriers even more.

I thought the same thing when Ma talked to that foreign reporter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMXV6avDHnQ

“They didn’t realize… they didn’t evacuate…”

He could have said “They were not evacuated fast enough (by the authorities)…” and taking at least part of the blame, though not directly.

It’s been one week since the typhoon and at one point it’s time to go back to normal, and Ma surely hasspent a lot of time dealing with the crisis, but when I saw him on the news yesterday opening that baseball tournament in Taichung, I thought “Aren’t there more important things to do for him right now, like sitting in meetings dealing with the allocation of resources, discussing what needs to be done in case there is another major typhoon coming this year, etc.?” Presiding over a tournament with virtually no spectators? Ridiculous. Mayor Hu would have been sufficient.

I am pretty sure the next president of Taiwan will be Mr. Su. He’s the “I can do it” type of personality the people need after someone like Ma.

Perhaps people are confusing the tone of his responses to questions and camera moments, with the actual coordinated response to the typhoon

Ma comes off as an accountant type, shrewd deliberate and cold. He is not the “common man”, he was born into wealth, with no possibility that he ever faced a crisis or disaster (poverty, hunger, homelessness). The biggest challenge he may have faced was choosing a brand of running shoes. This persona of him in this situation does not help his image in this situation. People are looking for someone to blame, so Ma rightly or wrongly becomes a soft target.

Given from the previous postings the response from the government to the Sichuan earthquake had more bells and whistles. That tokenism is easy, when you have no responsibility and accountability for the situation

The preception of the KMT has always been good for business, so good for Taiwan. But people still have Nari at the back of their minds, when Taipei was under water. Given it was the rain that caused the flooding, but that’s two times, Ma and the KMT, are associated with disasters.

Not even choosing running shoes: he’s known for re-soling the old pair he’s had for years and years and years…

I was reading about the issue of the reservoir project the villagers are blaming for teh landslide. Now, Ma has been the first one to say that they will punsih the ones to blame and that got me thinking: it would be more logical to assume that they were aware/knew that the floods in that area were caused by the project and hence, did not react swiftly hoping they could sweep it under the rug. I mean, there is a limit to incompetence. I’d rather believe that they were actively dragging their feet, as opposed to juts not being able to coordinate a response. It would be the best explanation for this constant finger pointing and blame assigning. Several officers have already said they will leave their posts once the worts part is over, yet, the issue of blame -without really pointing if its for the dissaster or the lack of coordination- keeps rearing its ugly head like an open wound. (I’m being a bit sarcastic, by the way)

I also kind of wonder how fair it is to compare the response to 921 to 88, especially in terms of troops. I think the comparison was like 5 times as many troops in the second day of the disaster.

This isn’t really in response to your post TNT, but you raised an interesting point… I’m no MYJ lover, but this “not the common man” criticism he often gets is ridiculous on several fronts…

Firstly, other than a few days during the aftermath natural disasters, what percentage of the Taiwanese population faces poverty, hunger and homelessness?.. I don’t have the hard statistics, but surely only a tiny fraction of a percentage point at most, and certainly not something the common Taiwanese citizen has to deal with… “Poverty” in Taiwan seems to mean living in a steel prefab and driving a 10 year old Toyota… The Taiwanese have little or no concept of poverty, take a look at Africa, India, China where millions have nothing and live on cents a day in absolute squalor, that’s poverty, the Taiwanese have it just dandy in comparison… The ‘common man’ in Taiwan has a car, a house, a flat screen TV and a pretty damn good quality of life…

Secondly where did this insane “governments/presidents should be just like the common man” mindset come from anyway, Sarah Palin?.. Chen ‘the 30M dollar man’ Shui Bian?.. I don’t want ‘the common man’ piloting my 747, I don’t want ‘the common man’ performing my heart surgery and I sure as hell don’t want ‘the common man’ at the reigns of political power, I want the best educated, most intelligent, most experienced, most qualified (not that Ma is any of these things) person available… When it comes to presidents bring on the elitism, not the ‘common man’…

there is a difference between elite and twat, though.

I read that Ma Ying-Jeou says he takes full responsibility. Does this mean we will shortly be seeing him on TV in floods of tears?

This isn’t really in response to your post TNT, but you raised an interesting point… I’m no MYJ lover, but this “not the common man” criticism he often gets is ridiculous on several fronts…

Firstly, other than a few days during the aftermath natural disasters, what percentage of the Taiwanese population faces poverty, hunger and homelessness?.. I don’t have the hard statistics, but surely only a tiny fraction of a percentage point at most, and certainly not something the common Taiwanese citizen has to deal with… “Poverty” in Taiwan seems to mean living in a steel prefab and driving a 10 year old Toyota… The Taiwanese have little or no concept of poverty, take a look at Africa, India, China where millions have nothing and live on cents a day in absolute squalor, that’s poverty, the Taiwanese have it just dandy in comparison… The ‘common man’ in Taiwan has a car, a house, a flat screen TV and a pretty damn good quality of life…
[/quote]
Maybe they have one of these inferiority complexes
They’d love to be rich, like the guy down the road. But the guy down the road is only rich, cause he is a lucky. “Damn that’s unfair”, so since they can’t bring or won’t bring themselves up, then they tear down the rich guy any chance they get

I guess “common man” means he grew up in hardship (cue violins) and struggled against the odds. He has a way that people can relate to and gets away with gaffs, cause though slightly incompetent he is perceived generally as well-meaning and trustable

Someone from CNN asked Ma what “taking full responsibility” means, as far as I understand Ma’s answer to be, it seems he defines this as being responsible to apportion the blame to others fully, and then punishing them.

Well, the international media have stuck around for several days, roasting Ma Ying-jeou in nearly every story they dispatch. Apparently, the foreign media don’t seem to like Ma’s patronizing style of explaining his positions on things, and locals are starting to realize they have a crap leader. (This according to my g.f. who follows the local news and BBSes much better than I can.)

Very late last night, I noticed this WSJ headline at number 5 in the International section on Google News: Ma Ying-jeou’s Katrina Moment Some of the language used in the story included: “his government’s bungled response” and “the Ma administration’s flat-footed response aggravated the problem.”

And then there is the infamous CNN pollin which 80% of more than 12,000 respondents said Ma should step down. And one of CNN’s most recent stories, Taiwan’s leader takes blame for typhoon response, notes that “Ma Ying-jeou has refused to stand down over criticism.” Perhaps they remember the “A-bian, Xiatai!” crap from a few years back.

And, needless to say, the world now gets a taste of Teflon Ma’s great skill with English as a weasel language. Taipei Times reported it most clearly: said during the interview that he would take full responsibility for the blunders and mistakes made during rescue efforts, he defined “taking all responsibility” as finding out what was wrong with the rescue system, correcting the problems and disciplining officials in charge.

So, he’s gonna do the responsible thing and punish those responsible. This is so typical. The best commentary that I’ve read so far was by Liu Shih-chung 劉世忠 in today’s Taipei Times: Ma revives bureaucratic inefficiency

[quote]…For more than 50 years of KMT rule, the bureaucracy in Taiwan developed a unique character of passivity. The hierarchical bureaucracy has not only produced a “red stamp” culture and unnecessary “paper traveling,” but also failure on the part of the government to react to public needs in a timely manner. Bureaucratic inefficiency was deeply rooted in the government when the DPP came to power in 2000.

Even though the DPP government made tremendous efforts to counteract bureaucratic resistance and streamline government organization, its lack of central governing experience constituted the main source of Cabinet inefficiency in the early years of the tenure of former president Chen Shui-bian (陳水扁).

But the bureaucracy can adapt. Under Chen’s second term, when most government officials had gained experience and were willing to listen to the rank and file, the bureaucracy was more efficient in implementing policy. Particularly when it came to natural disasters, the bureaucratic coordination of the former government outperformed the current KMT government. Because DPP leaders emphasized the achievement of goals and overall performance, the bureaucracy had no choice but to live up to it.

As power returned to the KMT, bureaucratic culture returned to its old ways. The bureaucracy’s weapons to stifle change are truly intimidating. The first line of defense is usually delay and obfuscation. Bureaucrats also tend to use crises to block initiatives for change. Most importantly, they can’t see the defects in their systems. They are isolated from the public and do not acknowledge people’s frustrations.[/quote]

That smells like the truth to me. My g.f. tells me some people were posting on the net that they’d rather have a corrupt president than in incompetent one.

And it seems vice foreign minister Hsia is the first big head to roll. I will be sorely disappointed if Premier Liu’s head doesn’t roll as well.

Mucha Man, interesting post, and I agree entirely; this will severely damage the KMT to the point where they may not be re-elected.

Symbols ARE important, but unfortunately stuff like this pushes Taiwan into the same old partisan crap that Britain and the US deal with. Personality politician gets elected on economic mandate, a brief period of popularity, disaster/key incident, removal. He may even get another term, by a narrow margin, but this fixation on cheap personality politics is what dooms us all to a stupid downward spiral.

Crying doesn’t mean he cares or doesn’t care. And crying is unlikely to be an authentic response for the President of any country. It is important politically that he hams it up for the cameras, it matters not a jot to the actual process of recovery and reconstruction. Presidents are CEOs, not spiritual leaders.

It’s fairly irrelevant whether he publically sympathises with individuals. It’s important what he does to alleviate their suffering in a concrete way. I don’t really respect the man at all and if I’d had the vote, I’d certainly not have been craven enough to vote for him, but to criticise him for not weeping on TV is odd.

I’d love to see it being about actions, not personalities.

plasmatron; agree with the ‘common man’ thing; it’s bizzare.