You mean facts like this?
Also what does discussing the education system in Taiwan have to do with “pro-China”?
What does discussing the education system in Taiwan have to do with this thread?
If education is the magic bullet to solve all social ills, then what the DPP have done to the MOE with their re-education program has done Taiwan a great disservice.
How else can one explain 30% in a poll believing Taiwan is part of the PRC?
They should just teach people they are in the ROC, and drop the nonsense with whole “Taiwanese not Chinese” nonsense they been introducing. Not to mention try to forward the idea WSR are “foreigners” in Taiwan.
Because it is not a complete written language yet. How does one plan to teach a language that has no formal standard of writing yet? Why replace the formal mandarin character sets with something that is incomplete.
There’s a shell game being played here.
The implicit assumption is that “democracy & freedom” = Taiwanese independence. I’d like to see someone justify that assumption in a rigorous and logical way.
[quote=“cctang”]There’s a shell game being played here.
The implicit assumption is that “democracy & freedom” = Taiwanese independence. I’d like to see someone justify that assumption in a rigorous and logical way.[/quote]
With respect to the poll numbers, I don’t think that assumption (or assertion) is being made here at all.
The stats indicate the priorities of the Taiwanese along with how they feel about their identity.
The Taiwanese, according to these stats, are not willing to sacrifice their democracy and freedom to obtain greater economic benefits from China. This flies in the face of this so-called “pragmatism” card that the unificationists love to play.
It also states that the key to cross-straights peace is the democratization of China.
Therefore, if China were to progress towards a freer political system, It is certainly conceivable that the Taiwanese would consider unification more favourably.
Indeed, it is the people themselves that wish to make this decision. They frown upon the creators of the anti-democratic Anti-secession law. They also dislike the notion of any government body making this decision for that matter.
That said, I do believe the TI movement has a wonderful opportunity to use these numbers to have the movement grow. Afterall, the PRC have certainly not shown themselves to be respectful to any democratic ideals lately. If the people can be convinced that the blessed “status quo” is an illusion which the PRC has no intention of upholding (which I believe to be the case), then I think the Taiwanese people would be more willing to entertain a more aggressive stance towards TI.
In propositional logic, the statement, “if A then B” says nothing about what happens if A is false. If A is false, then using perfectly sound logic, one can derive all sorts of ridiculous statements using only true statements.
The above usually finds application in parsing STOP_Ma’s reasoning.
[quote=“zeugmite”]In propositional logic, the statement, “if A then B” says nothing about what happens if A is false. If A is false, then using perfectly sound logic, one can derive all sorts of ridiculous statements using only true statements.
The above usually finds application in parsing STOP_Ma’s reasoning.[/quote]
Zeugmite, instead of lecturing me in logic, why don’t you specifically tell me what is so “unsound” about my premise(s).
I have noticed a pattern in your comments. When you cannot refute what I have to say, you usually resort to condescending speeches or try to hijack the thread with false statements (only later to say that you were “joking”).
This is why the conjecture is fanciful. China is progressing towards a freer political system than that of Mao era. However, the political leaders on ROC are no more interested in unification than they were during Mao’s era.
You misinterprete the system that exist on Taiwan. It is not a democracy, it is a republic. And elected leaders only have a limited responsibility to respond to popular demand (i.e. CSB actions in the last 6 years).
Understanding this premise is why TI is wrong on so many levels. The elected officials wish to maintain their “power” above all else.
To go on about how the “blues” will sell out Taiwan to unification is the wrong conclusion. The “blues” will maintain power on Taiwan while taking a conciliatory political position with the PRC.
The reason why the majority of Taiwan don’t support TI, has nothing to do with democracy and freedom, it has more to do with the majority do not see the benefit of maintaining political power on Taiwan while taking an antagonistic political position with the PRC.
Why do 4 million ROC citzen visit the PRC every year, if this was about democracy and freedom?
[quote=“ac_dropout”]If education is the magic bullet to solve all social ills, then what the DPP have done to the MOE with their re-education program has done Taiwan a great disservice.
How else can one explain 30% in a poll believing Taiwan is part of the PRC?
They should just teach people they are in the ROC, and drop the nonsense with whole “Taiwanese not Chinese” nonsense they been introducing. Not to mention try to forward the idea WSR are “foreigners” in Taiwan.
Because it is not a complete written language yet. How does one plan to teach a language that has no formal standard of writing yet? Why replace the formal Mandarin character sets with something that is incomplete.[/quote]
Education for the masses IS INDEED the magic bullet to solve most social ills. Okay, and you’re saying that changes to the education system that started nigh six years ago should already be taking effect? It’s a change for the long-term.
Read the thread (I know it’s long), but then you’d know that 30% erroneously believe that China is democratic, not that Taiwan is part of China.
I do agree, though… the people in Taiwan (“WSR” included) are Chinese. They are ethnically Chinese, and civiclally Taiwanese.
[quote=“zeugmite”]In propositional logic, the statement, “if A then B” says nothing about what happens if A is false. If A is false, then using perfectly sound logic, one can derive all sorts of ridiculous statements using only true statements.
The above usually finds application in parsing STOP_Ma’s reasoning.[/quote]
Sorry to burst your bubble, but STOP_MA is not doing what you purport he’s doing. He has based his statement on fact (from the poll), and acceptable logic.
[quote=“ac_dropout”]This is why the conjecture is fanciful. China is progressing towards a freer political system than that of Mao era. However, the political leaders on ROC are no more interested in unification than they were during Mao’s era.
You misinterprete the system that exist on Taiwan. It is not a democracy, it is a republic. And elected leaders only have a limited responsibility to respond to popular demand (i.e. CSB actions in the last 6 years).
Understanding this premise is why TI is wrong on so many levels. The elected officials wish to maintain their “power” above all else.
To go on about how the “blues” will sell out Taiwan to unification is the wrong conclusion. The “blues” will maintain power on Taiwan while taking a conciliatory political position with the PRC.
The reason why the majority of Taiwan don’t support TI, has nothing to do with democracy and freedom, it has more to do with the majority do not see the benefit of maintaining political power on Taiwan while taking an antagonistic political position with the PRC.
Why do 4 million ROC citzen visit the PRC every year, if this was about democracy and freedom?[/quote]
Taiwan’s political system is of course a democracy! A name is just a name. You’re saying that the Democratic Republic of Korea is democratic, because it has that in its name, are you? How about the Republic of Singapore - is that a republic?!?!
Sure, elected leaders want to maintain their power… but I’d sure rather live in a country whose leader can’t throw me in jail for starting a website about further democratization.
The reason why the “majority” of Taiwanese don’t support an all-out push for independence is because they don’t want to get killed! Don’t you get that?! Let’s say that China did not threaten Taiwan, I’m sure opinions would be different.
4 million Taiwanese citizens don’t visit China every year… included in the count are businessmen who make multiple trips back and forth. And we all know businessmen don’t care what happens, as long as they can make a buck.
Anyway, just because you don’t like the government, doesn’t mean you don’t like the people.
The concept TI introduced into the MOE is akin to “intelligent design” being introduced as science.
The problem is that reality will not conform to the TI agenda. That’s why when Taiwanese meet their Minnan speaking compatriots they are confounded by the shared “exclusive” language they thought was only found on Taiwan. That’s why WSR introduced as a concept of foreigner is so contradictory to the fact many on Taiwan support Ma, the epitome of what a WSR is on Taiwan.
Do you have a poll on that? I think you should qualified the statement more. Taiwanese don’t want to get killed over other people’s political position (i.e. your political position).
More to the point are ROC businesspeople no longer Taiwanese. You seem to think so.
But in a “democracy” their voice is equal to your voice. However, this is reality and their voice probably are somewhat more influential than TI voice, because people on both sides of the Strait make money when businesspeople make money.
So that is the problem with TI, it only has exclusive appeal to people who want to distance themselves from the PRC and WSR, but what about the rest of Taiwan. Remember TI only exist because minority interest are protected in a republic. If Taiwan was a true democracy TI would have been shouted down by mob rule long ago. 80% of the people don’t support TI in any form or on any time scale.
[quote=“ac_dropout”]
This is why the conjecture is fanciful. China is progressing towards a freer political system than that of Mao era. However, the political leaders on ROC are no more interested in unification than they were during Mao’s era.[/quote]
Are you kidding me? The KMT have turned 180 degrees on the issue. Who shook hands with Hu last year? Who is telling us that unification is what the party would prefer?
The blues have already stated that their main preference is unification. The blues have made the decision that the NUC ceasation does more to change the status quo than the ASL.
The majority of Taiwanese don’t support TI, because they believe in an illusion. The illusion is that China will respect the status quo – which they have / will not do. This is changing, however.
Are you talking to yourself again there, STOP_Ma?
Shawn_C:
zeugmite said he was pulling my chain. Do you read Chinese? Was he, in fact, doing so?
zeugmite: go find an easier thread for yourself.
No, I wasn’t, you doink.
I only said you shouldn’t actually thank me for pointing out you ate TP Times’ defecation product.
Yes, I do read Chinese. When zeugmite referred to the original article in Liberty Times, he translated it truthfully. It is in fact, 30% that think China is democratic - the original article has nothing to do with Taiwan being a part of China.
zeugmite: The majority of Taiwanese support the “status quo” because their lives are pretty good on the island, and if they were given two choices;
a) possible de jure freedom of Taiwan and possible DEATH from above, OR
b) annexation of Taiwan, but guaranteed no death
they choose b). So you see… someone wanting to keep the status quo is actually more of a TI stance, than a unification stance. It also goes to show that a majority of Taiwanese want peace (and at any cost). UNLIKE their China “compatriots”.
Yes, Taiwanese is like Fujianese… so? English is like French.
If 30% of Taiwanese believe that China is democratic and free, then there certainly is an education problem.
That’s unbelievable!
The pan-greens need to address this problem NOW.
I can only hope the above is a comment made in jest.
Taiwanese is like Fujianese, in the sense that English is like English. They’re exactly the same. English and French are different languages that happen to belong to the same group, due to their Romantic origins.
Taiwanese and Fujianese, aka minnan hua, are absolutely identical (with the possible exception of some idioms/slang). Both are also dialects of the same language.
Stop_ma,
Even with the handshake is ROC part of PRC now? No the blues have conditions for eventual unification as well which are no different from the greens.
- Need popular support
- guaranatee the welfare and liberties of ROC for themselves and the populace.
These obstacles are no more concrete than green. Available to an infinite number of interpretations.
However, the key-fundimental difference is that the blues take a position that doesn’t directly oppose the PRC policy on Taiwan. Or more specifically doesn’t inspire the PRC to take rash military actions on Taiwan.
In the larger picture, the blues are good cops and the greens are the bad cop. To get what ROC needs from the PRC to survive, the bad cops does their act, of making empty threats at TI. The good cops then offers a compromise that is acceptable to all parties.
However, the greens are not playing the role properly, as illustrated when the director, USA, slapped CSB down recently over the NUC.
The Pan-Blue position is more likely to preserve Taiwan’s political autonomy without directly provoking PRC like CSB has.
If CSB and the Pan-Greens continue to make empty threats on TI, or act on those threats, you can kiss Taiwan’s de-facto political autonomy goodbye.
I hope TI-advocates and their foreign supporters will be the first ones sent to the front lines in a war they provocatively started themselves.