[quote=“braxtonhicks”]Don’t you have dual citizenship? [/quote] Yes
[quote]Are you telling me that you’re going to choose to serve in the Taiwanese military and give up your higher-paying job for two years? [/quote] I’ll let you know after I serve.
[quote]And if China ever invades Taiwan you’re not going to high-tail it back to the US? [/quote] Yes
[quote]And if you do serve in the Taiwan military, wouldn’t you risk losing your other citizenship?[/quote] You don’t lose your US citizenship if conscription is compulsory. I think you have to be an officer or a high-ranking government official. Nonetheless, I will give up my US citizenship if I have to without any hesitation.
You would feel the same way if your people did not have a country (at least one that most would recognize), and people are living under a constant threat of tyranny.
I can attest I’ve met lots of “ABC” men that fit this stereotype. There are guys that have been going on “visa runs” for years just to avoid the military. They seem to be inconvenienced by the fact that part of their “birthright” involves defending the island.
Jason, I admire that, and I can also understand (a little) why you’d feel that way. Where I’m from, the US government owns about 40% of the island, and the military restricts access to the most beautiful beaches (among other things). There was also a time when my mother was in school when one would be punished for speaking the native language. The big difference though is that Taiwan has 23 million people and a fighting chance at defending itself. We have 150,000 and that’s including all the Asians who’d probably go back to their ‘other’ country. Can’t say I’d blame them though.
I think it’s unfair to lump all overseas chinese together this way as people who are here only to take and not give back. The takers certainly aren’t limited to just the overseas chinese/ABCs, and there are those who do consider the US/Australia/Canada/wherever home. Before we moved here, my husband had only lived here for one year as an infant. Home to him is California. Taiwan is home for his parents and grandparents, and that’s why he chose to move here three years ago.
I can attest I’ve met lots of “ABC” men that fit this stereotype. There are guys that have been going on “visa runs” for years just to avoid the military. They seem to be inconvenienced by the fact that part of their “birthright” involves defending the island.[/quote]
“Good iron is not used for nails, nor good men for soldiers” - Mencius (Mengzi)
And from a mushy mommy’s point of view, all men are good men, not to be wasted on war. And I’m NOT saying I don’t appreciate what our soldiers sacrifice… three of my older brothers are retired military and a fourth still serves as an officer.
In Chinese society, soldiers have always been looked down upon. This is also part of a Chinese male’s “birthright”. Some of the people really need to study your Chinese philosophy.
In Chinese society, soldiers have always been looked down upon. This is also part of a Chinese male’s “birthright”. Some of the people really need to study your Chinese philosophy.[/quote]
You are using the phrase out of context. Someone obviously need to polish up his Chinese philosophy.
Just because someone is educated overseas, it doesn’t automatically make him a “good iron”. And you are wrong in saying soldiers have been historically looked down upon. Where’s your reference? All the dynasties have been founded by solderies (well, ok, some by peasants). And it is always the soldiers (military) who held control of the real power. Why am I even wasting my time… Study up and we’ll debate in a different thread.
All in all, ABCs fit in when they really want to. Not just moan and bitch. As I mentioned, study up in Chinese/Taiwanese history, culture and language and people will respect you (ABCs)… You don’t get to have the same “status” just by showing up and look like a Chinese/Taiwanese. It’s disgusting to even think about it… Such disrespect to the locals.
[quote=“scchu”][And you are wrong in saying soldiers have been historically looked down upon. Where’s your reference? All the dynasties have been founded by solderies (well, ok, some by peasants). And it is always the soldiers (military) who held control of the real power. Why am I even wasting my time… Study up and we’ll debate in a different thread.
scchu[/quote]
“The Chinese thought that the causes of crime were soldiers and wanderers. They were considered evil beings for venturing away from they home.” - freeessays.cc/db/40/rfh34.shtml
“The soldiers were the least valued members of society. For too many people the soldiers were traditionally associated with hardships for the people. They represented times of destruction, chaos, loss of life and property, rape of women, and other detestable situations.” - globaled.org/spot_Co/c2l10.html
freeessays.cc FREE ESSAYS AND BOOK REPORTS “Our research center provides high quality database of free essays and book reports for school, college and university students. These papers are provided as samples for their writings. You can find just about any paper on our web-site.”
So this is where you got your research materials for your dissertation
[quote=“blueface666”]“The Chinese thought that the causes of crime were soldiers and wanderers. They were considered evil beings for venturing away from they home.” - freeessays.cc/db/40/rfh34.shtml
“The soldiers were the least valued members of society. For too many people the soldiers were traditionally associated with hardships for the people. They represented times of destruction, chaos, loss of life and property, rape of women, and other detestable situations.” - globaled.org/spot_Co/c2l10.html[/quote]
Oh, Plahhhhhease… you call those “sources”? They are hardly reputable let alone accurate. They read more like opinions.
While I don’t disagree that soldiers have often been associated with suffering and chaos, they have held an important status in the history of China (“China”, used in its broadest definition). From the Warring States, to Three Kingdoms, to even the KMT…
You have also ignored my comment that “You don’t get to have the same “status” just by showing up and look like a Chinese/Taiwanese.” You have to earn it. puagao certainly did. Now can the majorities of the ABCs say the same?
Whilte military had been associated with “evil” in some cases, you seem to have conveniently igored the “good” guys. For example, during the Song Dynasty with Yue Fei’s (
You didn’t like one of my previous sources…so how about these? By the way, the stories about Yueh Fei are nice…much like the one about George Washington, a cherry tree and a hatchet.
“In many ways, the Nationalists were no different than the warlords. They murdered opponents, assassinated critics, and employed terror as a device of rule. Moreover, the Nationalist soldier, like many warlord soldiers, was considered scum, lower than vermin. They were beaten, mistreated, often fed poorly and ill paid; and if wounded or sick they were left to fend for themselves, often to die slow and miserable deaths. In turn, soldiers often treated civilians no better. Looting, rape, arbitrary murder, was a risk helpless civilians faced from passing soldiers or those occupying or reoccupying their villages and towns.”
“The CCP also took great pains to ensure the discipline of its troops. The armies were expected to pay for the food that they took, did not loot the possessions of the locals and did not molest the women. This provides an interesting contrast to the behavior and the attitudes of previous and other Chinese armies. The peasants had become accustomed to armies where conscription occured at the point of the bayonet (the troops were often led to the front tied by rope), the armies simply took whatever food they needed, the possessions of the peasants were considered common property, and the women were considered to be fair game for the troops. This gets to the lack of military discipline and purpose to the other Chinese armies - to be conscripted was considered to be the equivalent of a death sentence, which led to massive desertions at the first opportunity and the attitudes of the officers were usually shaped by a desire for personal enrichment. Number of draftees that died before seeing conflict in the war 1.4 million, approximately 1 in 10 of all men drafted. Corruption was rife throughout the war, commanders would not report deaths or desertions so that they could still collect the pay and food for the departed. Units of inflated strength, never any certainty about what was the size of the force that would be opposing the Japanese.”
This climate of disdain derived mainly from Mencius, a prolific but unworldly figure who flourished in the middle of the Warring States period more than a century after Confucius. By default he became the chief interpreter and expositor of the Confucian viewpoint when Confucianism ascended to the status of the
This thread has gotten a bit confusing, I can’t keep track of who is arguing what, so let me just make my point.
There’s a BIG difference between being loyal to your country and serving in the military. In many instances these 2 ideas do indeed overlap, most of the time they do not and don’t have to.
Yes, I am a dual citizen doing the 4 month military dodging scheme. But I am doing this NOT because I want to betray taiwan or something, but because I think the military system is completely outdated and not practical. Experts say that Taiwan only needs a military of 200,000 to defend itself adequately. If you look at Taiwan’s size and geography that makes sense. Also, if you analyse the political and economic situation across the Taiwan Strait, war with China in not very likely in the near future.
But Taiwan right now has a military of over 400,000 and a reserve force of over 1 million. Now that’s way too many soldiers. This excessive military manpower system is left over by the CKS regime, because they thought that one day they would retake the mainland with a huge land army. In fact many young men (who don’t get into college) have to stay at home for half to 1 year just waiting for their turn to serve. during that time they can’t really do anything and its a complete waste of time. I believe that 2 years of service is way too long…a more productive way would be maybe 3-6 month service, plus a system of volunteer professional soldiers who get get paid a salary. The gov’t agrees with this and is pushing a system like that in the near future.
If Taiwan gets attacked, I will fight to defend it. But why waste my time in the military when there’s no immediate threat to the country? you can’t really say that I am not being loyal…what’s the difference between me and millions of young Americans? I don’t see them rushing to fight Iraq or Afghanistan. Does this mean that they do not love the US, I don’t think so. They could very well be loyal to the US just like I am loyal to Taiwan. But this is 2003 folks, not 1950’s. If you really think joining the army and fighting wars can solve problems then you gotta be nuts.
[quote=“aceman”]This thread has gotten a bit confusing, I can’t keep track of who is arguing what, so let me just make my point.
There’s a BIG difference between being loyal to your country and serving in the military. In many instances these 2 ideas do indeed overlap, most of the time they do not and don’t have to.
Yes, I am a dual citizen doing the 4 month military dodging scheme. But I am doing this NOT because I want to betray Taiwan or something, but because I think the military system is completely outdated and not practical. Experts say that Taiwan only needs a military of 200,000 to defend itself adequately. If you look at Taiwan’s size and geography that makes sense. Also, if you analyse the political and economic situation across the Taiwan Strait, war with China in not very likely in the near future.
But Taiwan right now has a military of over 400,000 and a reserve force of over 1 million. Now that’s way too many soldiers. This excessive military manpower system is left over by the CKS regime, because they thought that one day they would retake the mainland with a huge land army. In fact many young men (who don’t get into college) have to stay at home for half to 1 year just waiting for their turn to serve. during that time they can’t really do anything and its a complete waste of time. I believe that 2 years of service is way too long…a more productive way would be maybe 3-6 month service, plus a system of volunteer professional soldiers who get get paid a salary. The gov’t agrees with this and is pushing a system like that in the near future.
If Taiwan gets attacked, I will fight to defend it. But why waste my time in the military when there’s no immediate threat to the country? you can’t really say that I am not being loyal…what’s the difference between me and millions of young Americans? I don’t see them rushing to fight Iraq or Afghanistan. Does this mean that they do not love the US, I don’t think so. They could very well be loyal to the US just like I am loyal to Taiwan. But this is 2003 folks, not 1950’s. If you really think joining the army and fighting wars can solve problems then you gotta be nuts.[/quote]
Well you might as well evade taxation, too, if you don’t happen to find the tax rules to your liking for something in mode and practical. As for whether you will be loyal to Taiwan and stay to fight for it when there is an invasion, I wouldn’t count on it.
