Pornography: Harmless Erotica Or Base Exploitation?

[NonTocareLeTete]

I’m totally going to respond to this without having read the previous posts. I’m doing this shamelessly. So if what I say is redundant, sorry, I don’t feel like reading just now.

My moral system is based on freedom. Things that promote individual freedom= good. Things that damage individual freedom= bad. This is the only moral system that makes sense to me. Therefore if all involved in the making of, ingesting of or otherwise profiting from porn are consenting, mentally capable adults, by all means screw like rabbits in front of a camera

I don’t find it particularly fulfilling, but in a fix…ya know

The main problem I have with porn is with guys who think of it as a ‘how to’ guide. Dudes, I hate to break it to ya, but chances are that you will not become a better lover by watching porn. In fact, you’ll probably become worse. Sure, you might pick up a couple new positions, and that’s cool, but porn is extremely male-centric (at least what I’ve seen) and won’t teach you how to please a lady. I did see some porn that was supposed to be aimed at female viewers but oh my gosh, BORING!!! Anyways, the two worst guys I’ve ever slept with were way into porn, and it kinda seems like they watched a lot of porn before they ever had any real experience. They were so mechanical. :raspberry: They could have learned a thing or two from this emoticon, for god’s sake :raspberry: Or this one :discodance: However this one probably wouldn’t have been very helpful :liar: These could also be useful in the right situation :no-no: :bravo: :roflmao: :loco: and even this one sometimes anticipation is a good thing you know.

Does it make men objectify women? I don’t know, I’m not a men. Some girls want to be objectified. Just let the baby have his bottle aight?

[finley]

[quote]Or this one :discodance:

These could also be useful in the right situation :loco: [/quote]

Er … you what? Really?

Just one thing worth adding to the “it’s not an instruction manual” sentiment: Japanese porn. May God have mercy on their souls.

[NonTocareLeTete]

[quote=“Got To Be Kidding”]We’ve all, at one time or another viewed porn, so let me ask y’all this. When you’re done, are you more prone to think of women as sex objects? Instead of people worthy of love and respect?

I know how I want to think of women, but every time I watch pornography, my view of women goes out of sync with how I want to view them. Women are worthy of respect and friendship as equals. Pornography corrupts that.

For those of us who believe that the bible is the real deal, pornography is just plain wrong, but I understand that this argument doesn’t make sense to many of us. So, I’ll put it another way.

You cannot have a working, functioning society if you do not have respect. No respect? No society.

Viewing pornography damages the respect that we men have for women. I know this, because I’ve seen it in myself. If you are honest with yourself, you will see it too.

Women are not objects. They are people. The very fact that we have to have a women’s forum that men are NOT allowed to view should tell us all how much respect we really have for women. I believe that pornography is a serious moral issue, but you don’t have to share my view to see how bad pornography is for our society.

If you can’t have God, at least have some respect.[/quote]
Okay now I’m reading back, had to respond to this.
First, I don’t want God.
Second, I think men are objectified by porn as well.
Third, Got to Be Kidding, I’m not religious and I often feel a huge divide between my mind and the mind’s of the faithful. Often I feel that they’ve surrendered their minds to authority, begging to be relieved of the responsibility to think for themselves.
You, however, seem to be thinking. Your posts, though I often disagree with them, are well thought out and well worded. You even admit that your beliefs are irrational. Faith is sort of irrational by definition, but coming from you I can kind of respect it. Just thought I should mention that.

[NonTocareLeTete]

[quote=“finley”][quote]Or this one :discodance:

These could also be useful in the right situation :loco: [/quote]

Er … you what? Really?

Just one thing worth adding to the “it’s not an instruction manual” sentiment: Japanese porn. May God have mercy on their souls.[/quote]

Honestly Finley I just kinda chose the emoticons with some motion to them don’t read too much into it
This might be interesting though. This however, not so good. A tear of ecstacy or two, maybe, but streaming, that’s a bad sign. I can see some promise in this one and I’ll admit I’ve done this once or twice in bed and if someone could please me with this :ohreally: I’d be duly impressed.

Okay I’m done here I got work in the am, night!

[finley]

Women are not objects. They are people. The very fact that we have to have a women’s forum that men are NOT allowed to view should tell us all how much respect we really have for women. I believe that pornography is a serious moral issue, but you don’t have to share my view to see how bad pornography is for our society.

I don’t think acting in pornography makes someone (m or f) more or less of an “object” than, say, acting in a Woody Allen film. We are all, to some extent, objectified by the lives we live. When you go to work and do your employer’s bidding, you are an object, a machine; you have willingly set aside your own wants and needs in favour of someone else’s. OK, you probably have less chance of catching something nasty or becoming an embarrassment to your family, but the principle is much the same. That’s why the word ‘prostitution’ has a broader meaning than you’d expect, and most likely why ‘merchant banker’ means something entirely different in London. You’ll also note that societies where sexual expression is most rigidly controlled are also those which have the least respect for human life (and female life specifically).

Surely porn is more of a practical issue than a moral one: it’s an immense waste of time, energy and bandwidth. Why do we need FTTH connections, massive multi-gigabit backbones, and hardwired H.264 logic in our video chips? Why, so we can get high-definition, live streaming porn, of course! Back when I were a lad, I thought it was magic that our university had a 64kbit ISDN line and Gopher/WAIS software. I wonder how much of the internet’s infrastructure is now dedicated to the delivery of smut? Must be at least 95%.

And yeah, you’re probably going to forget that real sex is a whole different ball game if you watch too much porn, same as you’ll forget how the real world works if you watch too many Hollywood movies (hello, Kim Jong Il). Still, what ya gonna do? We all have a divine right to be hopeless in bed if we so choose…

[tempogain]

@Fortigurn

[quote=“Tempo Gain”]There’s no need to get snippy about it. I didn’t realize my opinion would be that offensive to you. Whatever, forget it.

It’s not a matter of me getting snippy or being offended by your opinion. Your opinion doesn’t affect me one way or another, and you’re welcome to it from my point of view. It’s simply a matter of my (by now well documented on this forum), objection to people making authoritative pronouncements on subjects, when their pronouncements not only lack any evidential support but are flatly contradicted by the relevant scholarly literature. [/quote]

It wasn’t intended to be an “authoritative pronouncement” of any kind, it was a simple statement of opinion. Obviously I’m not a qualified psychiatrist. If I’m welcome to my opinion, I hope you’ll take it in that spirit, and not as intended to be the incontrovertible word from on high. If I’m wrong, I welcome that being demonstrated to me, and I’ll happily admit it if I feel that’s the case.

There’s no way I could read the whole report at your link, it may as well be in Dutch to me! I’ll go out on a limb and take this as a summary:

[quote]
There are several components to sexualization, and these set it apart from healthy sexuality. Sexualization occurs when

*      a person’s value comes only from his or her sexual appeal or behavior, to the exclusion of other characteristics;
*      a person is held to a standard that equates physical attractiveness (narrowly defined) with being sexy;
*      a person is sexually objectified—that is, made into a thing for others’ sexual use, rather than seen as a person with the capacity for independent action and decision making; and/or
*      sexuality is inappropriately imposed upon a person.[/quote]

Those are bad things, but I don’t see there anything equivalent to “being viewed” as anything, or with women of their own free will having sex with men, who enjoy it. If I’m missing something, tell me, because as of now I don’t see the apparently vital importance that was attached to me clicking on that link with regards to what I was saying.

[quote]

I don’t think though that a man enjoying the fact that women are more available for sexual purposes these days necessarily makes him a chauvinist, no.

Perhaps, though I would find the distinction difficult to identify.[/quote]

Really? I find this definition of chauvinism: “Prejudiced belief in the superiority of one’s own gender, group, or kind”

Why does enjoying sex mean a belief in superiority?

But it is no surprise to hear males denying the negative effects of women giving them what they want.

It’s not doing me any good, lol. But I don’t think you’ve accurately described my viewpoint. You have to have a man giving a woman what she wants as well. It takes two to tango. I’m saying is that if a woman wants to have sex with someone, or vice-versa, that’s her, or his, business. I don’t see such a situation as in conflict with the summary above.

[Fortigurn]

@urodacus

I won’t take the word of a psychologist with an axe to grind about it, though. What the hell do they know about what goes on in my head?

I’m going to start handing out Dunning-Kruger awards.

@Tempo Gain

Those are bad things, but I don’t see there anything equivalent to “being viewed” as anything, or with women of their own free will having sex with men, who enjoy it.

Sexualization is being viewed as something. This was made clear:

• a person is sexually objectified—that is, made into a thing for others’ sexual use, rather than seen as a person with the capacity for independent action and decision making;

If I’m missing something, tell me, because as of now I don’t see the apparently vital importance that was attached to me clicking on that link with regards to what I was saying.

If you start by saying you’re not going to bother reading it all, then of course you’re going to miss something. Here are the consequences listed.

Cognitively, self-objectification has been repeatedly shown to detract from the ability to concentrate and focus one’s attention, thus leading to impaired performance on mental activities such as mathematical computations or logical reasoning (Frederickson, Roberts, Noll, Quinn & Twenge, 1998; Gapinski, Brownell & LaFrance, 2003; Hebl, King & Lin, 2004).

Research links sexualization with three of the most common mental health problems of girls and women: eating disorders, low self-esteem and depression or depressed mood (Abramson & Valene, 1991; Durkin & Paxton, 2002; Harrison, 2000; Hofschire & Greenberg, 2001; Mills, Polivy, Herman & Tiggemann, 2002; Stice, Schupak-Neuberg, Shaw & Stein, 1994; Thomsen, Weber & Brown, 2002; Ward, 2004)

Self-objectification has been linked directly with diminished sexual health among adolescent girls (e.g., as measured by decreased condom use and diminished sexual assertiveness; Impett, Schooler & Tolman, 2006). Frequent exposure to narrow ideals of attractiveness is associated with unrealistic and/or negative expectations concerning sexuality. Negative effects (e.g., shame) that emerge during adolescence may lead to sexual problems in adulthood (Brotto, Heiman & Tolman, in press).

Frequent exposure to media images that sexualize girls and women affects how girls conceptualize femininity and sexuality. Girls and young women who more frequently consume or engage with mainstream media content offer stronger endorsement of sexual stereotypes that depict women as sexual objects (Ward, 2002; Ward & Rivadeneyra, 1999; Zurbriggen & Morgan, 2006). They also place appearance and physical attractiveness at the center of women’s value.

The sexualization of girls can also have a negative impact on other groups (i.e., boys, men, and adult women) and on society more broadly. Exposure to narrow ideals of female sexual attractiveness may make it difficult for some men to find an “acceptable” partner or to fully enjoy intimacy with a female partner (e.g., Schooler & Ward, 2006).

I think what it’s going to come down to is that I see these as bad things whereas others in this thread don’t; the ‘How can it be bad for others, if it’s something I enjoy?’ mentality.

Why does enjoying sex mean a belief in superiority?

I didn’t say it did. It’s objectification which is an assumption of superiority. It reduces others to objects for personal gratification.

You have to have a man giving a woman what she wants as well.

No you don’t. That’s the great thing about objectification, it encourages women to give what men want, and devalue what they themselves want.

I’m saying is that if a woman wants to have sex with someone, or vice-versa, that’s her, or his, business.

Is it still just her business if the reason why she wants to have sex with someone is because she’s been pressured into the idea?

[Dr_McCoy]

I’m about to spend the afternoon looking at pornography. Then later, I will come back and let you bitches know what effect it had on me.

[shibari]

Speaking of porn, is beastiality legal in Taiwan? One of my roommates was asking me. No, I don’t know why. On the other paw, the house dog spends a lot of time in her room.

[finley]

@shibari

Speaking of porn, is beastiality legal in Taiwan? One of my roommates was asking me. No, I don’t know why. On the other paw, the house dog spends a lot of time in her room.

Sounds like she ought to set up a website.

[the_chief]

@shibari

Speaking of porn, is beastiality legal in Taiwan?

It is if you don’t spell it right.

[shibari]

@finley

[quote=“shibari”]Speaking of porn, is beastiality legal in Taiwan? One of my roommates was asking me. No, I don’t know why. On the other paw, the house dog spends a lot of time in her room.

Sounds like she ought to set up a website.[/quote]
She’s not hot.

[Dr_McCoy]

I don’t seem to care that much anymore.

[antarcticbeech]

I just read this article in the International Journal of Law and Psychiatry.

The abstract

[quote]A vocal segment of the population has serious concerns about the effect of pornography in society and challenges its public use and acceptance. This manuscript reviews the major issues associated with the availability of sexually explicit material. It has been found everywhere it was scientifically investigated that as pornography has increased in availability, sex crimes have either decreased or not increased. It is further been found that sexual erotica has not only wide spread personal acceptance and use but general tolerance for its availability to adults. This attitude is seen by both men and women and not only in urban communities but
also in reputed conservative ones as well. Further this finding holds nationally in the United States and in widely different countries around the world. Indeed, no country where this matter has been scientifically studied has yet been found to think pornography ought be restricted from adults. The only consistent finding is that adults prefer to have the material restricted from children’s production or use.[/quote]

And then into the article a little:

Studies by other investigators, female as well as male, (Barak, Fisher, Belfry, & Lashambe, 1999; L. Baron, 1990; Davies, 1997) essentially found similarly that there was no detectable relationship of the amount of exposure to pornography and any measure of misogynist attitudes. No researcher or critic has found the opposite, that exposure to pornography – by any definition – has had a cause and effect relationship between exposure to SEM [sexually explicit material] and ill feelings or actions against women. No correlation has even been found between exposure to porn and calloused attitudes toward women. Kimberly Davies who studied this suggests calloused attitudes toward women may not be generated by sexually explicit videos but from features deeply ingrained in our society (Davies, 1997). And in one measure of societal attitudes Baron found, contrary to the hypothesis that exposure to porn lowers status of women, the states with higher circulation rates of pornography had higher measure of sexual equality. His conclusion is that “pornography and gender equality both flourish in politically tolerant societies (R. A. Baron, 1974) Page 363).”

http://image.sciencenet.cn/olddata/kexue.com.cn/upload/blog/file/2010/3/20103237373450098.pdf

So I can’t really see what the problem is. Pretty much all the porn I have seen is very tame, which is a reflection of market tastes I guess. Extroverted and promiscuous women do exist and some of them like to be filmed having sex. Why would anyone care about this? It is not like they are doing anything as degrading as teaching English in Taiwan , or getting ‘respectably dressed’ each morning to stand on a street corner recruiting for the House of Mormon . People are sexual animals. Sex is normal. Sex with other people is normal, too. In fact, in the spirit of the thread, I’m typing this lying in bed, in the buff, with my girlfriend next to me. (She agrees with me, too, and she even understands Taiwanese culture )

[Fortigurn]

@antarcticbeech

I just read this article in the International Journal of Law and Psychiatry.

It addresses substantially different issues to the APA paper I cited, and contains no reference to any research on objectification and sexualization. A single study on the effects of exposure to porn on the self-perception of men and women was cited, and only two studies on the effect of porn on general social attitudes towards women (one of those studies was from 1974).

[Dr_McCoy]

I’m starting to care again about it, but I don’t think I’ll really be ready to care about it for a couple of days. I’m not so young anymore.

[tempogain]

If you start by saying you’re not going to bother reading it all, then of course you’re going to miss something. Here are the consequences listed.

That doesn’t add anything to the summary I made above. I agree that “sexualization” as defined there would have negative consequences, and had said as much.

[quote]
I think what it’s going to come down to is that I see these as bad things whereas others in this thread don’t; the ‘How can it be bad for others, if it’s something I enjoy?’ mentality.[/quote]

They seem bad to me as well, but to me, it seems you’re equating “sexualization” and/or “sexual objectification” with “consenting adults agreeing to have sex with one another and enjoying it.”

[quote]Why does enjoying sex mean a belief in superiority?

I didn’t say it did. It’s objectification which is an assumption of superiority. It reduces others to objects for personal gratification.[/quote]

You seemed to be saying that for a man to enjoy the idea that there were more females available sexually these days was almost certainly chauvinist in and of itself. I agree with what you say above though, if a man objectifies women in general in this way, that is an assumption of superiority.

[quote]

You have to have a man giving a woman what she wants as well.

No you don’t. That’s the great thing about objectification, it encourages women to give what men want, and devalue what they themselves want.[/quote]

[quote]I’m saying is that if a woman wants to have sex with someone, or vice-versa, that’s her, or his, business.

Is it still just her business if the reason why she wants to have sex with someone is because she’s been pressured into the idea?[/quote]

I disagree with these statements. Attitudes like those described as “sexualization” above are unhealthy, and someone being pressured into sex is not what I’m talking about at all. But in the end adults have to make their own choices. People have the freedom to act as they wish, within obvious limits, and the responsibility for their own choices and their consequences.

Also, you seem to me to be making “objectification” and “women desiring to have sex with men” as one and the same set. I don’t see that as the case as all. In fact it seems to suggest that women are incapable of knowing what they want and making their own choices, and that their choices are only being driven by “objectification” etc.

[Fortigurn]

@Tempo Gain

That doesn’t add anything to the summary I made above.

It adds a lot; specifically, it adds all the negative consequences you were asking for.

I agree that “sexualization” as defined there would have negative consequences, and had said as much.

Great agreement; let there be much rejoicing.

They seem bad to me as well, but to me, it seems you’re equating “sexualization” and/or “sexual objectification” with “consenting adults agreeing to have sex with one another and enjoying it.”

No, that is not my intended meaning. I do not equate these two.

You seemed to be saying that for a man to enjoy the idea that there were more females available sexually these days was almost certainly chauvinist in and of itself.

I actually said it is ‘possibly’ the case that someone saying this isn’t a chauvinist, but that I would find it difficult to make the distinction (if I heard someone saying this). To me it’s exactly what chauvinists do; speaking of women as sexually available objects, and delighting in the fact.

I agree with what you say above though, if a man objectifies women in general in this way, that is an assumption of superiority.

Glad we’re in agreement here.

I disagree with these statements. Attitudes like those described as “sexualization” above are unhealthy, and someone being pressured into sex is not what I’m talking about at all. But in the end adults have to make their own choices. People have the freedom to act as they wish, within obvious limits, and the responsibility for their own choices and their consequences.

As a wealth of feminist literature will tell you, many of the alleged ‘choices’ apparently available to women are in fact Hobson’s choices in which the independence of their decision making process is challenged significantly by socio-cultural factors. The APA literature on this is extensive, especially with regard to the formation of female self-esteem and self-image during the vulnerable teen years. Girls grow up making ‘choices’ based on the images to which they believe they must conform.

Also, you seem to me to be making “objectification” and “women desiring to have sex with men” as one and the same set.

No, that is not my intended meaning.

[shibari]

Fucking hell, she’s got the damn dog in her room again. I can’t sleep. All that goddamn creaking and whimpering.

You people probably think I’m joking or torlling, but I’m not. Two more weeks and I graduate and can GTFO.

[antarcticbeech]

@Fortigurn

[quote=“antarcticbeech”]I just read this article in the International Journal of Law and Psychiatry.

It addresses substantially different issues to the APA paper I cited, and contains no reference to any research on objectification and sexualization.[/quote]

Yeah, but sexualizing a woman is not a crime. If watching porn directly caused sexual assault or even led to marriage then I might be concerned. It does not - in fact, if anything, an increase in porn use is associated with decreasing rates of sexual assault. I think one must keep a sense of proportion when studying pornography.