Position of "also" in sentences

Language English Grammar & Usage
1

This is one of those questions that seems so simple at first glance. Perhaps you can help me figure out where I went wrong. We were discussing the use of “In addition” and “also” as transition words. In addition is quite easy, as it always comes at the beginning of a sentence and always uses a comma. I thought I had “also” licked as well, but somehow I seem to have crossed my wires on this one and cannot get it straight. How do you teach where to place “also” in a sentence? My first thought was that you have three possibilities:

  1. At the beginning of the sentence with a comma:
    Most students in four-year colleges are very intelligent. Also, they study hard.

  2. Before the main verb with no comma:
    Most students in four-year colleges are very intelligent. They also study hard.

  3. If there is a helping or modal verb, between the helping or modal verb and the main verb with no comma:
    Studying in a foreign country is exciting. You may also get a better education.

I had it all wrapped up, I thought. But then, you’ve got cases like this one:
Undergraduate students are usually too immature to live away from home. a) They also are irresponsible./b) They are also irresponsible. ??? Here we have a case of a sentence with only a main verb (are) yet, to me b sounds correct. So, where do I go with my rules now? How do you clarify where to place this little word? I’m thinking my mind has gone blank on this one. Ideas, kind brothers and sisters of my profession? :help:

2
  1. after is/am/are/was/were.
3

I can start my sentence with

Also, the other party has more money then we do … right?

4

You have four rules to describe the use of one word. Continue with this method and your students will have memorized 60, 000 rules to handle the 15,000 or so words they need to learn. I’d be afraid that they might use rule number 32,674 when actually they should have used rule number 15,682.

5

Bob,

What’s your approach?

6

It’s not much different than yours perhaps but if I teach a “rule” I try to be sure that it is one that is generally applicable. For example I have taught the rule “When you make an information question from a yes no question the auxiliary verb remains before the subject and comes after the question word” so many times that I can now teach it in Mandarin. The longer I teach though the less effective I think some of these rules are. There are just too many of them and too many exceptions to each one, and it really seems that grammatical considerations such as these are best left to the subconcious anyway. Recently I have quite often had the experience of being suprised at being able to say something in Mandarin with correct grammar (I ask people if specific sentences are correct) when, in fact, I have scarcely a clue as to whatever grammar might be involved. I learn Mandarin by learning sentences that I actually want to be able to use. In other words I memorize translations from English. Apparently what is happening is that my subconscious is extrapolating from those examples to generate the “rules”. Rules that I have not studied or discussed. Rules that I in fact do not consciously know. This seems to me like a very natural approach to language learning. Memorize useful sentences, use them a lot. Perform simple manipulations of those basic sentences and do lots and lots of easy, in context, listening practice. If wanted to teach people how to use the word “also” I would probably try to use the word to achieve some communicative goals but I’m coming to see that as an ass backwards approach too. Language study should be similar to language use so why not start with what they want or need to say and teach whatever is necessary to that.

7

[quote]1) At the beginning of the sentence with a comma:
Most students in four-year colleges are very intelligent. Also, they study hard.[/quote]

I’d put a semicolon after intelligent and lowercase the also, but that’s just me.

I would say to check the context; are you modifying the pronoun or the verb?

To me, They also are irresponsible says that, apart from someone already mentioned, they too are irresponsible.

They are also irresponsible tells me that you have said something previously about ‘they’, and you are adding one more thing about them.

e.g. ‘My parents told me that I am irresponsible, but they also are irresponsible.’

‘My kids are noisy and rude. They are also irresponsible.’

Hope that helps.

8

Bob,

I think you bring up some very good points which I agree with, believe it or not. I think memorizing rules is largely ineffective, and for the most part do not spend much time on that in learning other languages. But in practice, particularly with Asian students, I have a difficult time not listing rules. I think this is for several reasons:

a) Taiwanese students are so used to memorizing rules, that they often get frustrated if you don’t list rules, and will declare a mutiny on any teacher who doesn’t do it. I often try to emphasize that memorizing a bunch of grammar rules is NOT the best way to learn how to communicate in a language. Alas, this seems to go out one ear and then the other before one of them asks for “the rules.”

b) I’ve always struggled to a certain extent to get Taiwanese students involved in communicative activities. Many of them say and appear to have very limited interests and knowledge of anything but studying, and their very small world at school and with their family. If you think this is a cop out (American slang for saying that I am blaming it on the students to get out of my own responsibility), you can say so, but this has been my experience about 90% of the time.

c) In general, I think it is difficult to learn how to teach on a daily basis in a communicative manner and think of create ways to involve the students in real, goal-oriented activities. I go to the the professional conferences, I read, I brainstorm for ideas, but I still find it very difficult to do in practice. I wish there was training to help us teachers find new ways to do this sort of thing in practice, but having taken the CELTA a few years ago and not finding it as practical as I had hoped, I haven’t found a good way to improve on this. I’ve wanted to discuss ideas with other teachers, but I am somewhat isolated here and Taiwanese teachers do not seem interested in discussing new ideas.

I do want to point out, though, that I do not think rules are all bad. For example, I couldn’t figure out in Chinese for the longest time the difference between hui4 ke3yi3 and neng2 which all correspond to “can” in English. One teacher finally explained the “rules” very systematically, and this helped me a great deal. Even though I would have preferred the Chinese teacher to follow up “the rules” with more practice, and I do not usually like to spend a lot of time memorizing rules as a learner myself, I have to say that sometimes it does help. And I don’t really memorize all 22,3788 rules of grammar. I learn a certain set at a time and keep reviewing them and trying to apply them, until it becomes natural and I can forget that rule for awhile.

Responses? (I say these things not in defense, but towards discussion.)

9

Starting a sentence with “also” is fine for speaking, but is rather sloppy / informal for formal written work.

It comes after the “be” verb and after modals.

10

[quote=“alwayslol”] c) In general, I think it is difficult to learn how to teach on a daily basis in a communicative manner and think of create ways to involve the students in real, goal-oriented activities. I go to the the professional conferences, I read, I brainstorm for ideas, but I still find it very difficult to do in practice. I wish there was training to help us teachers find new ways to do this sort of thing in practice, but having taken the CELTA a few years ago and not finding it as practical as I had hoped, I haven’t found a good way to improve on this. I’ve wanted to discuss ideas with other teachers, but I am somewhat isolated here and Taiwanese teachers do not seem interested in discussing new ideas.

I do want to point out, though, that I do not think rules are all bad. For example, I couldn’t figure out in Chinese for the longest time the difference between hui4 ke3yi3 and neng2 which all correspond to “can” in English. One teacher finally explained the “rules” very systematically, and this helped me a great deal. Even though I would have preferred the Chinese teacher to follow up “the rules” with more practice, and I do not usually like to spend a lot of time memorizing rules as a learner myself, I have to say that sometimes it does help. And I don’t really memorize all 22,3788 rules of grammar. I learn a certain set at a time and keep reviewing them and trying to apply them, until it becomes natural and I can forget that rule for awhile. [/quote]

I’m extremely fortunate in that I run my little programs for adult students that I find on my own so issues of whether or not some administrator or co-teacher agrees with my ideas are non-existant. I am however 100% responsible for providing an environment where adults feel that they are learning to communicate. Not long ago I was a bit of a grammar pusher too but these students (and a few good teachers here at forumosa) cured me of that.

I wish I knew how to help you build more of a communicative focus but as large classes are not something I have ANY experience with that might be hard for me to do. With a small group it is possible to get people talking just by asking them about their past experiences or hopes for the future particularly as it involves using English. If they tell you that they want to work at a fittness centre that caters to a lot of foriegners for example then you can run with that for ever talking about carbs and body fat, gluts and pecs etc. If during this sort of exchange you notice them making the same mistake then drop in a grammatical explanation and an excercise or two. This is basically what I do. I combine it with quite a bit of music (Grammar Chants by Carolyn Graham is good) and short stories, television shows etc. It’s rare that I feel there is “nothing to do”.
Hope this helps.

By the way I’d love to hear your friend’s explanation of hui4, ke3yi3 and neng2. I’ve got nothing against rules but first “I” as a student need to feel a need for them. Thanks.