Practical English Phonetic Script

Would you support English writing reform?

  • Who do I have to kill to make it happen?
  • Yes. It’s a good idea.
  • I’ll go with the flow.
  • I’m against it.
  • Suggestions like this is why God invented the lynch mob.

0 voters

The Problem: A Complicated Spelling System

You know what really makes teaching Engish more difficult? How we spell things. The sound /n/ can be written ‘n’, ‘nn’, or ‘kn’. The symbol “c” can represent the sounds /s/ (alone or prefixed by a “s”), /k/, or combined with something else to make /ts/. Vowel sounds… well, talk about unnecessary complication.

Given time, we natives master the spelling rules by a process of induction. We see patterns of words (most of which we can already say) repeated enough times and we subconsiously generalize them into a correct set of rules for all the variants of spelling in English.

On the other hand, we sit in classrooms trying to explain to children rules for all these things so that they can deduce how to spell or read a word. But there are so many rules, so many exceptions, and a lot of it just doesn’t make sense without a PH.D in language history. Learning how to spell all these words is really a terrible burden.

Rationale

Now, it isn’t really incumbent on anyone to change a language to suit outsiders trying to learn it as a second language. But English is an exceptional case. It has become the international language of business, power, and global community in the space of just a little more than 100 years. Not because of some superiority of the language, but perhaps in spite of some of its drawbacks.

It wouldn’t take much to knock English off as the world’s dominant language. What happened in 100 years could be undone in 50. It is in the interests of English speaking people, who derive advantage from having their mother tongue be so prestigous, to promote English’s continued utility as an international lingua franca.

More importantly (in this forum), as English teachers, our profession would be made much easier if spelling was a minor issue. Not to mention we’d have less problems spelling words ourselves.

Solution

There are already systems out there for transcribing language phonetically. First and foremost there is the IPA, which theoretically will be able to accurately transcribe human speech in any language. Secondly, there is KK, a modified and simplified version of IPA made specifically for English. Either of these systems would eliminate all guess work and complex spelling rules. You’d have one symbol for one sound.

The chief problem of using either IPA or KK as a system is the trouble with typing. It would simply cause too much trouble to create a new typing system and software for printing using all the symbols that would be needed. On top of that, native English speakers would be reluctant to learn new symbols to write with.

What we need is a new system using the old symbols that will be intuitive so that resistance to language reform will be minimized while still being able to simplify spelling rules to one symbol to one sound.

I originally thought of creating my own suggestion, but much of what I would do was already proposed by others. If you look at ship.edu/%7Ecgboeree/epa.html and scroll down to "a slightly less phonemic script) that idea matches my own with only a few exceptions.

I would revise as follows:
All short vowel sounds would simply be the vowel alone (no change)
All long vowels would be the vowel + e (no intervening cononants)
cake=caek, meat=meet, kite=kiet, coat=coet, moon=muen
The double ‘o’ sound in “look” would still use the double ‘oo’
the y symbol will be used only as a consonant as in “yes”


edit: I forgot to put the ‘e’ in the moon example

PWH My heeerooo!

I didn’t have time to read your explanation just yet.

But I have the feeling you have completely redeemed yourself. :laughing:

I think it would get far more support (at least from the foreign community and TESOL teachers) than changing a Chinese script, and there are probably more people learning English too.

Go, boy! Go! :bravo:

[quote]I would revise as follows:
All short vowel sounds would simply be the vowel alone (no change)
All long vowels would be the vowel + e (no intervening cononants)
cake=caek, meat=meet, kite=kiet, coat=coet, moon=mun
The double ‘o’ sound in “look” would still use the double ‘oo’
the y symbol will be used only as a consonant as in “yes”[/quote]

duzent this alredy happen on the internet aneewae to sum degree?

no wut i meen?

:slight_smile:

excellent thinking brother. :bravo:

[quote=“jdsmith”][quote]I would revise as follows:
All short vowel sounds would simply be the vowel alone (no change)
All long vowels would be the vowel + e (no intervening cononants)
cake=caek, meat=meet, kite=kiet, coat=coet, moon=mun
The double ‘o’ sound in “look” would still use the double ‘oo’
the y symbol will be used only as a consonant as in “yes”[/quote]

duzent this alredy happen on the internet aneewae to sum degree?

no wut i meen?

:slight_smile:

excellent thinking brother. :bravo:[/quote]
Yeah. You make a good point. Another advantage of changing these spelling rules is that we’d be shoving it to the leEt speakers who write like that to be rebellious. Bonus! :smiling_imp:

see, yur alredy oever mie hed.

:s

sure, but let the indonesians do it. that way we won’t have the british vs. states rigamorale. “taxi” and “sexy” are in indonesia (IIRC) spelled taksi and seksi.

I thought about using ‘i’ to represent the long “e” sound, but then what do we do with the short “i” sound?

The principles I am thinking to guide any sort of spelling changes are:

#1- No introducing new symbols, no use of diacritics. Just the straight 26 letters of the English alphabet.
#2- One symbol for one sound as much as possible, but because there are more sounds than symbols, sometimes two letters will combine to represent a sound.
#3- Keep the symbols currently in use as much as possible. The spelling system must be as intuitive as possible.
#4- Symbols applied to sounds they do not already represent should not have a pronunciation in English that could be confused with their new use. Example: When writing the sound for long “o” we should not choose “ou” because that sound can already be read as “ow”

While there is an argument from the standpoint of making English more international in terms of spelling by making the symbol “i” equal to the long “e” sound (as in taxi), I think “ee” is equally clear and you’d either need to introduce a new symbol for short “i” or make another vowel combination bringing you further away from the original system than necessary and making the new system less palatable.

It has often been pointed out that English spelling is
unnecessarily difficult, for example: cough, plough, rough, through and
thorough. What is clearly needed is a more creative and phased program of changes to
iron out these anomalies. The program would, of course, be
administered by a committee staff at top level by participating nations.
In the first year, for example, the committee would suggest using ‘s’
instead of the soft ‘c’. Sertainly sivil servants in all sities would
resieve this news with joy. Then the hard ‘c’ could be replaced by ‘k’
sinse both letters are pronounsed alike. Not only would this klear up
konfusion in the minds of klerikal workers, but kumpiuturs kould be
made with one less letter.

There would be growing enthusiasm when in the sekond year, it would be
announsed that the troublesome ‘ph’ would henseforth be writtn ‘f’.
This would make words like fotograf’ twenty persent shorter in print.
In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted
to reash the stage where more komplikated shanges are possible.
Governments would enkourage the removal of double leters whish have
always been a deterent to akurate speling.

We would al agre that the horible mes of silent 'e’s in the languag is
disgrasful. Therefor we kould drop them and kontinu to read and writ as
though nothing had hapend. By this tim it would be four years sins the
skem began and peopl would be reseptive to steps sutsh as replasing
‘th’ by ‘z’. Perhaps zen ze funktion of ‘w’ kould be taken on by ‘v’,
vitsh is, after al, half a ‘w’. Shortly after zis, ze unesesary ‘o’
kould be dropd from vords kontaining ‘ou’. Similar arguments vud of kors
be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters.

Zen vi kum to the problem of zu long I, zu I pronounced as eeee!, and zu short I. Sertunli zis kan bi overcum bai using zu I for e and zu ei for ie and zu long I kan bi vritun as eye.
Zus, vi kan reyet,


Proposal for Introducing the Script

Once a definite set of symbols is devised and research done to prove the superiority over the script over the current system is done, the next step would be to introduce it.

I am opposed to any sort of governmental regulation trying to force people to use the new system.

Instead, I would introduce the new spelling system as an educational tool. It would first be used as a replacement for KK since the two systems would be redundant. But the new system would expand outside of Taiwan and be used among all ESL teachers. (IPA would continue its current role.) Next, it would be introduced into elementary schools as a supplement to standard spelling.

The second phase would be to introduce the new script into popular media. Give people time to become proficient at reading the new script.

Finally, after a few decades of having old and new language, start phasing out the old spelling.


Edit: Rube-- I knew I had read that somewhere. A quick search turned up where. That’s Mark Twain’s. You should probably attribute that to him. But I disagree with some of his choices. I like the one in the link above, but altered as I mentioned in my original post.

I attribute nothing to anyone: dead or living. Just a rehash of something that has always stuck in my mind. Sorry to have stepped out of your bounds. So what’s wrong with a little creative plagiarism/spelling/posting?
From supposed English teachers whose grammar and spelling I have observed over the years, they would do well to emulate me.

OK Mark, you can turn back over now.

Those aren’t my bounds.

I do dislike it when people post something they saw and let others believe it is an original idea. And considering you copied and pasted that from somewhere else and didn’t cite your source, well, you called it right when you said plagiarism.

I didn’t make up the rule that says don’t plagiarize.

But this isn’t my forum, and even if it were I wouldn’t react unless such plagiarism had some chance of bringing on some legal problems (which this won’t). But if I see something I remember from somewhere I’ll likely be curious as to where and point it out when I find it.

What, did I step outside your bounds by calling you on it? You can freely plagiarize and nobody can mention that’s what you’re doing?

no diacrits? not even the dot on lower case “i”? “J” started as a variant of “I” with a tilde on top, didn’t it?

i picked up a trick the students would use to help them with pronunciation: they have two lower case "i"s. one, just like ours is for short i applications. the others has a “chinese one”: yi (ee) over the vertical. pretty cool how they came up with that.

Ok, no new diacritics not already built into our standard set of letters.
:raspberry:

Yeah, “i” can be long “e” in some cases, which is part of why I am suggesting this. English.:loco:

BTW- I think their inspiration comes from a tone mark in pinyin. The word pinyin itself will have both “i’s” with a flat mark over them to denote first tone.

Those aren’t my bounds.

I do dislike it when people post something they saw and let others believe it is an original idea. And considering you copied and pasted that from somewhere else and didn’t cite your source, well, you called it right when you said plagiarism.

I didn’t make up the rule that says don’t plagiarize.

But this isn’t my forum, and even if it were I wouldn’t react unless such plagiarism had some chance of bringing on some legal problems (which this won’t). But if I see something I remember from somewhere I’ll likely be curious as to where and point it out when I find it.

What, did I step outside your bounds by calling you on it? You can freely plagiarize and nobody can mention that’s what you’re doing?[/quote]

Come on! All that angst over something so trivial is going to give you a heart attack. When dealing with a topic as frivolous as this one, take anything I have to say with several grains of salt, and don’t take me too seriously. Peace! :notworthy:

The problem with a complete spelling overhaul is that it would destroy the historical significance of the spellings we have. It would no longer be evident that a word like “know” is a cognate of the Latin “cognoscere” or the Sanskrit “jnana”. Looking at “night”, it is easy to see that it is related to the German word “nacht”, and was once similarly pronounced.

Also, the way words like “profane” and “profanity” (with their vowel change) are related would be obscured.

I would not mind some minor spelling adjustments to get rid of some of those pesky abnormalities. E.g. why do “motor” and “glamour” have fixed spellings, but “color” (“colour”) is spelled differently depending on what country you’re from? in one or the other? In the US, why do we use the spelling “theater” in the generic sense, but “theatre” in proper names of theaters (theatres)?

It’s a loss, but a small one. I don’t think many people (in terms of percentage) actually know any of that. But if you want to research etymology and history of words it’s a short step back from noe to know. Languages change and evolve, but our spelling rules have not kept up. Instead they’ve fossilized.

proefaen vs. proefanitee-- not too big of an obscuring.

[quote=“Chris”]The problem with a complete spelling overhaul is that it would destroy the historical significance of the spellings we have. It would no longer be evident that a word like “know” is a cognate of the Latin “cognoscere” or the Sanskrit “jnana”. Looking at “night”, it is easy to see that it is related to the German word “nacht”, and was once similarly pronounced.

Also, the way words like “profane” and “profanity” (with their vowel change) are related would be obscured.

I would not mind some minor spelling adjustments to get rid of some of those pesky abnormalities. E.g. why do “motor” and “glamour” have fixed spellings, but “color” (“colour”) is spelled differently depending on what country you’re from? in one or the other? In the US, why do we use the spelling “theater” in the generic sense, but “theatre” in proper names of theaters (theatres)?[/quote]

It’s OK to change colour to color, and flavour to flavor, but not night to nite or know to noe. Where’s the consistancy?

PWH I don’t fully agree with your proposal. Not because it is not good, but because it is a bit too radical. Please let me explain.

Most people could cope with colour to color and dropping off silent letters lilke k and w at the beginning of words. Or changing ough to uff or other similarities, because it would still be in the bounds of “what they know”. They wouldn’t need to “relearn” English, they could pretty well pick up most things and be flying. What you’re proposing would take some (really on ly a little, but for the average Joe, a little too much.)

My idea is only a half baked idea and would still leave English spelling a little untidy, but it would be much easier to get approval. (It probably wouldn’t, but it would be easier.) When I read the sample on the link you provided the second sample was like a cross between Shakespeare and German. While I could probaly get through it (it’s too late and I can’t manage it - I’m only here because the webpage I’m using won’t load properly!! I should go to bed.)

Your idea is far more thorough. It would leave English spelling spick and span, squeaky clean. However, I don’t think it would ever get enough support.

Take Chris for example. He can aaccpet the changes that he’s already familiar with, but try and suggest that to a Brit.

But Chris doesn’t like the idea of changing a word like know or night.

Now I am being a little hypocritical here. I would easily accept night to nite, write to rite. However, for a some strange reason I would be really sad to see knight be changed to nite. The unusual spelling of this word seems to have some sort of magic, which my brain associates with the virtues and perils of being a knight.

And know just seems so much more intelectual than no or noe.

These are purely emotional responses, but that is where your problem lies.

I guess what I am saying is that if you go for such an extreme, as practical as it might be, I don’t think it would ever launch.

A more conservative, but perhaps not acceptable to youand fellow linguists, version might actually get somewhere.

I am not saying I don’t like the idea (well I do a bit) but if you are really serious and want ot make a change I don’t think that’s the road.

You’re point on keeping English as number one language is quite valid I think. Chinese could very easily become the #1 language, but if we market
English a little better, then it might just hold out.

As for teaching, well you got my vote there.

It would be nice to have a squeaky clean language (like Korea) or even pinyin for that matter. But they only got that done because of governments who didn’t really care what the people thought. I don’t think youwould get away with a complete overhaul in the West (unless we wait for the Chinese to take over, and they would probably be very happy to do it.)

However, as unpalatable as it might seem, a more conservative approach might actually get somewhere.

ch as in chef to shef (oh wh not get rid of all those froggy words?)
ck to k
ph to f
ough to respective uff, ow and o (or oe).
ight to ite
(I’m really undecided on the long vowel) your suggestion is practical and consistant, but would require relearning, at least on a recognition basis. However, its easy enough to be dome uite quickly so it has a lot of merit.

Drop the silent letters w and k and p.

There’s lots more but it’s late and I think I’m just rambling.

I might need to come back and edit another day.

GCZ

I agree that there’s no way you could reform English in one generation. Did you read my follow-up post on how I would go about introducing the script?

For step one it would just be to establish the script as sort of “pinyin” for English. We have KK and IPA, but they’re not exactly user friendly. The new version WOULD be user friendly. It would start as a teaching tool for 2nd language learners, move to use as a spelling tool for elementary English, and only then begin to work its way into popular use.

I would hate to write niet instead of knight or night. I’m not used to it. I’ve never been taught it. But we prepare the next generation so that they can prepare the following generation to start using it, and then the generation after that can perhaps make the difficult switch and then a following generation will be using it quite naturally.

Any attempt to force the issue or promote it as a big, fast, change is almost sure to fail.

Sorry, I didn’t read your later post. :blush:

That seems very sensible, I wish you all the best.

But what about MY teaching NOW!! :raspberry:

I’m still all for a revision of English. Now. Just a revision of the redundant stuff like silent letters and anything that could be changed across all major accents (yes including NA) that will still reflect the pronunciation

ch as in chef to shef (oh wh not get rid of all those froggy words?)
ck to k
ph to f
ough to respective uff, ow and o (or oe).
ight to ite
gettng rid of silent k w f etc. etc etc (excpet knight and know :sunglasses: )