Or this new war bill, as they are calling it, could mark the beginning of China’s demise as a communist nation. Nothing will happen until after 2008 at any rate. Beijing doesn’t want to risk the Ollies. And by then, Soong will be president here, so all will be well.
This anti-secession law has one good thing, brings Taiwan back into the news and helps those of us that reside in Taiwan in a sense that more people will know that we are actually not in Bangkok.Oh, and it helps the long distance phone companies back home when worried parents, wifes, husbands, pets, etc. call to ask how things were out here.
Seriously and it has been said here before, if it does anything signifficant, it will make people in the free world aware of the Taiwan situation and then after the Froggs sold :fume: weapons to China and the US establishes :bravo: diplomatic relations with the Republic of Taiwan… but that is another story.
From Fafblog, which usually deals with U.S. political issues – and pie. Yum.
[quote]Sympathy for China
Giblets feels for China right now. Giblets is also the legitimate ruler of a country which does not recognize his sovereignty: the United States. Also Canada, Mexico, the UK, France, Germany, Russia, Brazil, the Czech Republic, the Dominican Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Poland, Mongolia, Tibet, Belgium, the Netherlands, Norway, Ukraine, Georgia, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Peru, Colombia, the Vatican, Belize, Burkina Faso, Chad, Somalia, Gambia, Honduras, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Malawi, Panama, the Marshall Islands, the Solomon Islands, Palau, Swaziland, China, Taiwan, Leprechonia, and the Moon – oh, the insolence of the Moon!
These breakaway provinces and possibly some others Giblets has momentarily forgotten are in a state of rebellion against Giblets which cannot be tolerated! Thus Giblets has passed the Anti-Secession Law of the People’s Republic of Gibletsia, which authorizes Giblets to use military force on those nations who will not re-unify peacefully with him. Giblets stands ready to deploy the army of Gibletsia – last estimated at around 6.5 billion – to retake what is his.
Giblets also chooses to reveal at this time that he is married to numerous wives and mistresses including any number of ex-girlfriends, supermodels, mythological entities, and that hot chick Giblets saw on the subway last week, all of whom have inexplicably separated themselves from Giblets. If they do not remarry Giblets peacefully, Giblets is prepared to authorize himself to club them over the head and drag them back to his cave.[/quote]
It would appear that China is willing to take a war with US over unification.
At least they are busy scaring USA’s allies in the region off.
The anti-secession law truly is an insult to world democracy and the rule of law.
It reminds me of Adolf Hitler’s and Josef Stalin’s claims that a chunk of Czechoslovakia and the countries of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia – and other countries – belonged to them.
Yet, as history showed, those two dictators eventually overstepped themselves and brought devastation down on their own countries.
Beijing’s Communist hierarchy should read up on some history, and learn lessons from it.
Or else face the consequences. 
Yes, the ASL is indeed an affront to freedom and democracy the world over. Diplomatically isolated Taiwan may be, but that does not mean the world could be indifferent to its fate.
I have heard of a plan by some local Taiwan group here to start a March for Peace across the USa, from LA to NYC, where the UN is, involving 10,000 Tawianese from Taiawn, flown over in charter jets en masse, a veritable freedom airlift, all local people, not ABCers living in USa, but island people here, and to march for 30 days across USA as a world publicity stunt.
I wonder if this will really happen. Good idea. Sure to get major headlines and show Taiwan people up front and personal. Hard to imagine, though.
Maybe they can scream “Nee!” to China while they are on tour.
Seriously, even if all 2.3 million Taiwanese register the same popular will, they can never even come close to matching 1.3 billion Chinese popular will. I will assure you the local Chinese Americans will match them 10:1. People always make the mistake and think this is a CCP stunt and therefore don’t even consider that common Chinese people even have an opinion. They will be shown wrong.
[quote=“zeugmite”]Maybe they can scream “Nee!” to China while they are on tour.
Seriously, even if all 2.3 million Taiwanese register the same popular will, they can never even come close to matching 1.3 billion Chinese popular will. I will assure you the local Chinese Americans will match them 10:1. People always make the mistake and think this is a CCP stunt and therefore don’t even consider that common Chinese people even have an opinion. They will be shown wrong.[/quote]
It is news to me that the Chinese people has been asked about what they think about Taiwan and the likelihood that the Island will be de facto independent. I must say that I think your suggestion is excellent. The Chinese government should take the opinion of 1.3bn chinese into account, why don’t the Chinese government send it out to referendum?
While the Chinese are voting on this, they could add a few extra items in to vote on. May I suggest: “Would you support a direct election for president of the PRC”, along with: “Would you support that the CCP gave up their monopoly on power”?
The anti-seccesion law does not have any democratic stamp on it whatsoever. The writing and passing of it was directed by a very small group of people, and noone voting on it was elected in a free and fair manner.
Seeing the current law as the will of anything but a very small group of men is therefore preposterous to put it mildly.
First of all, the NPC voted 2896-0 with two abstentions in secret ballots, that’s not a “very small group of men” but whatever. Party leadership was speculating that it would be a good showing if they could get fewer than 30 “no” votes, so this is extremely high concensus even by PRC standards.
Second, passing the law was suggested by many people, and got momentum last year with idea being brought public by an overseas Chinese in UK, though the ideas in the anti-secession law has been a decade in the working by many people.
But that’s not the point. The passing of the law may not confer it procedural legitimacy in your eyes since you dismiss the entire political system of PRC. Regardless, that is not what I said and none of what you say detract from my previous post, that Chinese public opinion is the impetus behind this and therefore Chinese overwhelmingly support the anti-secession law. You are deluded if you think otherwise.
[quote=“Mr He”][quote=“zeugmite”]Maybe they can scream “Nee!” to China while they are on tour.
Seriously, even if all 2.3 million Taiwanese register the same popular will, they can never even come close to matching 1.3 billion Chinese popular will. I will assure you the local Chinese Americans will match them 10:1. People always make the mistake and think this is a CCP stunt and therefore don’t even consider that common Chinese people even have an opinion. They will be shown wrong.[/quote]
It is news to me that the Chinese people has been asked about what they think about Taiwan and the likelihood that the Island will be de facto independent. I must say that I think your suggestion is excellent. The Chinese government should take the opinion of 1.3bn Chinese into account, why don’t the Chinese government send it out to referendum?
While the Chinese are voting on this, they could add a few extra items in to vote on. May I suggest: “Would you support a direct election for president of the PRC”, along with: “Would you support that the CCP gave up their monopoly on power”?
The anti-seccesion law does not have any democratic stamp on it whatsoever. The writing and passing of it was directed by a very small group of people, and noone voting on it was elected in a free and fair manner.
Seeing the current law as the will of anything but a very small group of men is therefore preposterous to put it mildly.[/quote]
No, Mr. He, I agree with Zeugmite that most mainlanders do agree with the ASL. That doesn’t necessarily mean that their opinion about the matter should be respected, though. Why should we respect the simple minded opinion of a mass of people who are poorly informed and who don’t enjoy the benefits of a free press and freedom of speech? Why should we respect opinions, whether for independence or unification, that have been formed mainly by government propaganda rather than an environment where ideas can be challenged and debated openly. I’m not so naive to believe that if mainlanders were suddenly allowed to exercise the right of free speech and were allowed access to a free press, they would quickly change their ideas about this subject. Even without media controls and suppression of debate, group think is a difficult thing to break. Nevertheless, just because a billion+ people hold a certain belief does not make that belief a valid one, much less something having the weight of “law” in another jurisdiction. Even if every last man, woman and child on the mainland believed that the PRC has the right to decide, with or without the use of force, the fate of the ROC’s 23 million, I still won’t think their opinion on the matter is correct or worthy of my respect. They may get their way in the end, but in my opinion they will always be wrong no matter how many of them there are.
Jive Turkey and Zeugmite.
I must admit that I do know that a fair amount of Chinese support the anti-secession law, also I know that it was rubber-stamped by a 3000 people “legislative” body. However, the Chinese people was not asked about this is the way of a referendum, or say that the “representatives” for that won their seats in contested free and fair elections. In other words, yes I know they support it, but no it does not matter, as they were not asked per se. Also, I don’t respect their opinion, as well - but don’t flame me, as neither does the CCP.
Also, the ultimate responsibility for the passing of the law is not with the Chinese “Parliament”, but with the standing committee of the politbureau of the CCP. Remember that the vast majority of Chinese “Parliament” members are also members of CCP and therefore bound by the party line.
Zeugmite, I think what you are seriously overlooking is the Chinese trait for doing things step by step. Give an inch, take a mile. Just like the EU arms ban, at some point the Chinese will push the US to sell it its most advanced weapons as well. An example you said yourself is future reunification talks.
I was just thinking about reasons of why the ASL is being pushed into play at this point: I think it is more than just TI issue as you mention. Sure, TI issue is one of the key points, but not the only fundamental dynamic as you say. If interested here is a partial list:
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Need to control independence activities in Taiwan least some province in mainland gets the same ideas. (with some help from wealthy Taiwan business leaders in china).
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Need to keep sheeple busy with nationalist issues because the mainland economy is becoming more and more capitalistic and unstoppable and there is the need to create more transparent mechanisms to attract foreign investors (courts, corporate governance, controlling ccp corruption, etc.) meaning the end may be in sight for CCP if too much market liberalization in given. I remember reading in 2007 foreign banks will be allowed to open savings accounts for locals. It seems like a massive shift of capital will then go from controlled, unregulated state banks to foreign hands since everyone wants their bank $ protected. Also as Yellowcartman mentioned, now is really the only window of opp to press this issue since after 2008, the world maybe a different place.
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Need to challenge the US into thinking not to monkey with Iran in the next few months, since China sees Iran as its key energy source over the next 25 years or so. With US in Iran, china contracts may be revoked. Taiwan conflict helps china by give the US more to deal with at the same time. (especially worrisome is china cruise missiles to any carrier sent to Taiwans strait.
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longer term, need to control Taiwan because whoever has ultimate control can control the sea lanes to Korea and Japan.
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Because of Taiwans better geographic location, it helps china firmly establish Diayotis and Spratleys as Chinese territory for oil and fishing rights.
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Controlling Taiwan is a stepping stone to control all Chinese societies in Asia even at some point the development of Australia as a Chinese colony for its growing population and resource needs. -Just speculating here since China can
Going back to the timing issue of the ASL, an article in today
AMEN! You tell 'em, Chewycorn! 
Wonder who ghost wrote this article in the Washington Post. washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar … Mar24.html
It’s pretty good. The debunking of the civil war parallel was spot on as was the observation that East Asia’s security problems come from the two remaining one-party dictatorships in the region.
The key point is that Taiwan has NEVER been part of the country known as the PRC. PERIOD, END OF DISCUSSION.
This might sound like a dumb question but:
What sort of action would be considered a declaration of independence in the eyes of Chinese officals?
Would a million people and a president shouting “Want Democracy, Love Peace” be one?
Well, the word is “China,” but if we are going anal, we may also say the key point is there has NEVER been a country known as Taiwan that has no remaining political connection to any other country. PERIOD, END OF DISCUSSION.
Even if we go with your PRC, it’s a weak statement. Hainan had never been controlled by the PRC government – until it was. Zhoushan had never been controlled by the PRC government – until it was. No, Kinmen and Matsu had never been controlled by the PRC government – and it almost was. No, all of mainland China had never been controlled by the PRC government, until they beat the KMT. So… what’s the key point? That PRC should establish control in Taiwan ASAP even if for a short time and your argument goes poof?