Are you planning on moving back anytime soon? Like, right after graduation?
Anyway…
I have noticed this too. It’s an act. Kind of like when George Bush starts in on his drawl.
You are thinking of the Guoyu tuixing weiyuanhui.
It still exists, but it is now in the hands of the Taiwanese language crowd. I’m also pleased to see that it has changed its name to the National Languages Committe in keeping with the new policy that Taiwan now has 12 (count em!) official languages.
By this logic, you’ll have to agree that Taiwan is in fact a sovereign country and not a province of China gone astray.
By this logic, you’ll have to agree that Taiwan is in fact a sovereign country and not a province of China gone astray.[/quote]
This smells like a very large chunk of bait.
By this logic, you’ll have to agree that Taiwan is in fact a sovereign country and not a province of China gone astray.[/quote]
oh no, no way, i’m not getting involved in this one 
(except to say that cmdjing, by his own duck analogy, is a duck out of water in this forum…foreigners in taiwan, he is a PRC citizen in the USA so has got bugger all to do with Taiwan…but of course he’s welcome to have his say; seems a bit more reasonable than dropkick by all accounts!)
[quote=“steve101”]Who gets to defines the “proper” accent for Mandarin? Is there actually a properness to someone’s accent anyway?
You are not going to the southern states and tell them “wow, your have an southern accent, that’s so embarrassing, sounds so uneducated, so unintelligent, so unproper.” Then tell them they ought to learn how to speak English the proper way, the northern way.
After that I suppose you can go tell a British man, “Geeze, listen to yourself with your Englih accent, sounds so funny, you must either be not very bright, or just has a complete tin ear.”
Are we even suppose to be proud and happy if we can speak Beijin Hua well by your standard? What are we trying to prove, prove that we can be completely Chinese’nized by the foreign oppressor’s educational system?
No, actually we’ll be sad if most of our newer generation can speak Beijin Hua and sounds just like a WSR but can’t speak our native Minan language as well as our older generations. You loose your own cultural identity, your own root of where your older generations come from, and become what someone else wants you to be, to be like them.[/quote]
Steve,
As a native Mandarin and English speaker one knows when someone has gone too far outside the normal acceptable diction at a formal function. Would it be appropriate for the President of the USA to speak in overly urban accent. A-bien has been pushing the envelop on “lazy mouth” pronouciation for quite some time now. Forget the fact that he not curling his tongue, he just not moving his lips and misprouncing words.
It is like when I had to work with Indian consultants once. Sure they had what I percieved as non-standard British diction. But they could modulate it in a conference call when they needed to.
Also do you know what Beijing Hua is. Have you been to the mainland. Beijing Hua is not mandarin, it is a local dialect of the area like Shanghainese.
All I’m complaining about is that CSB can pronounce the words correctly, he chooses not to. So I have to jump to the subtitles, and then think sometimes that’s not how it is pronouced in Minnan hua, so what is he doing garbling it all up like that.
As for your other comment about reading in Minnanese. Did you know my A-ma is a functional illerate thanks to the Japanese. So I don’t get your nonsense about reading in Minnan hua. A vast majority of people in ROC of my a-ma and mother generation from the countryside are functional illiterates.
Are are you asking if I can read the standard character sets and pronouce them in Minnan Hua. How do you think I sing KTV. 
It is the usually a positive cultural cue to pronouce words correctly at a formal function.
[quote=“ac_squealer”]
Also do you know what Beijing Hua is. Have you been to the mainland. Beijing Hua is not Mandarin, it is a local dialect of the area like Shanghainese.[/quote]
Correct. Hindi is also an articificial leverage of the local dialect (Hindustani) of the capital into a national language. First rule of conquest, force the newly conquered to speak the language of the oppressor. Mandarin is the projection of the language of the capital into the conquered territories as a tool of political power.
[quote=“ac_squealer”]
All I’m complaining about is that CSB can pronounce the words correctly, he chooses not to. So I have to jump to the subtitles[/quote]
That’s funny, because I can understand him just fine with or without subtitles. But then again I also speak the new standard, Taiwan-goyi.
That your elder family members are illiterate comes as no great surprise. Glad to hear you’ve gotten yourself educated, but it seems you lost your moral fiber along the way.
Indians have a heavy Indian accent, Japanese have a heavy Japanese accent, Chinese have a very Chinese accent.
Mandarin was called Beijin Hua in Taiwan before KMT came over.
It’s good enough that he or we are willing to speaks it, I see no reason for him to pronounce it the way that pleases your ears even if he can. If that means you having to jump the subtitles so be it since I see no reason why you shoudn’t understand it in the first place. Maybe we should all start speaking in Minnan Hua only and refuse to speak Mandarin and see how you like that. That solves all the mispronunciation problems.
At the same era a bigger majority of people in China are illiterates, and that’s thanks to who?
Great, now pick up a Chinese newspapaer and see if you can do the same.
You can try to pronunce it as properly or as standardly as you want, or you can take it up a notch and say “I’m a pure Chinese” like how Lien Chan does it.
hsiadogah,
You mean like Ubonics in the USA. fizzle, my man.
steve101,
But these are non-standard diction on English which most people will not understand without straining an ear.
It is not about pleasing my ears. It is so that people don’t misunderstand him. If CSB never said another word, now that would please me for years.
I think 50% of the population on Taiwan would think twice about voting for a person who can’t even communicate with them.
No problem. But like with all dialects there are terminology not commonly used in formal writing. So songs are much better for authentic usages of those Taiwanese terms.
I think you guys miss the point. A person who achieve Presidency status should try to communicate to everyone, not just one segment of the population. Proper diction in Mandarin is one way to achieve that.
Proper diction in Minnan Hua can do you good too, let’s ban Mandarin in schools and implement our educational system as Minnan Hua only. Then we can all learn how to speak Minnan Hua propely.
Like peanut did with that fucked up accent that noone could understand? Like Lien Chan does with his pathetic attempts at speaking Taiwanese? If the president were going to address the majority in their native tongue it would be Taiwanese, or are you deluded enough to dispute that too?
Not to inject any sense of reality into our discussion. But Taiwan today is not Taiwan of 400 years ago. Beside the Minnan speaking immigrants there are now a whole slew of Taiwan citizens of Han and foriegn descent on Taiwan that don’t speak Minnan Hua.
And I thought Taiwan was a democracy where everyone had a voice. How silly of me, only Minnan Hua speakers have a voice. :loco:
What goes around comes around.
First: The term Minnan hua is not Hoklo. Often, people who whish to associate Taiwan with China use the term Minnan hua to create an imagined bridge between Fujian and Taiwan. Has anyone been South of the Min? I have. The languages on Taiwan differ from those in Fujian due to a break in the linguistic continuum and the adoption of loan words from aboriginal, Hakka and Japanese languages as well as English. Lets not let ac_dropout suck us into using his loaded terms.
Second: What is proper and what is not proper mandarin in Taiwan is a standard set in Taipei by an elitist party and an elitist system which preferred Chinese over Taiwanese. Often, an individual’s accent determined their socio-economic upward mobility with a heavy favor going to non-Taiwan born individuals. The view that a Hoklo accent is “bad” comes from this era when Chinese were favored for well paying jobs in the civil service. The result was a generation of Taiwanese children who grew up without learning the language of their home for fear they would be tainted and unable to compete economically with the Chinese. (see The Anthropology of Taiwanese Society by Ahern-Gates)
The standards ac-dropout is using are the same standards used by the KMT to try to remain in power. Unfortunately, because of the economic liability of the Hoklo accent, many Taiwanese have accepted the elitist standards of the KMT regimes.
maowang,
- Minnan Hua is the dialect spoken on Taiwan. Borrowing a few foriegn words doesn’t make it a new language. I have spoken to many PRC people in the PRC and abroad that spoke the Minnan dialect with no problems.
Just like HK version of Cantonese is not that different mainland Cantonese due to a few borrowed words.
- I think the concept comes from Guan Yu (Official Language) in Chinese culture. Guan Yu changes from dynasty to dynasty. But having mastery of it allows for advancement in society.
Ahern-Gates are hardly credible people to be leaders in the Chinese nor Taiwanese debate, they can observe it as outsiders.
The standards I talk about is what will let people understand you when you speak mandarin.
It would be like if I took all the foriegners in Chinese language university programs, and stated this was the new standard of Mandarin pronoucation, most people would think I’m crazy. Or if I went to an ESL class in the USA and use that as the standard in English pronouciations.
Your argument is similar to why Eubonics should be taught in American schools. Notice Eubonics fell off the cirriculum.
Can we please ignore him? These arguements will just go on for ever…
I agree. Most other 15 yo boys are happy with Playstations.
I would be more than happy to contribute to a fund to buy him one. AC, do you think you could give us a mailing address so we’ll know where to send it? Also, please tell us what games all your friends at school like to play; if there’s any money left after buying the Playstation, we’d be more than happy to buy you a few games. NO WAR GAMES, though. You’re already an aggressive boy.
[quote=“hsiadogah”]A-Bian does the Taiwan-goyi thing to appeal to the masses. Everyone knows this. It works, much better than dropping to your knees every five minutes or blabbering about how your mum’s shithouse has no door. He has better image-stylists than your guys do. Deal with it. Taiwan-goyi is the standard now, not your ugly tongue-curled noise from the north. That China accent makes my skin crawl.[/quote]Yea, yea, yea! I thought the same thing. It did seem like it was purposeful. For example, maybe Lien and Soong can learn to speak Taiyu but they can’t speak Taiwan guoyu! That is the mark of a real Taiwan ren. A familiar sound that you know that this guy is just like you. Not some super rich Kuomingtang trying to be down with the people speaking a little Taiyu.
[quote=“ac_dropout”]
And I thought Taiwan was a democracy where everyone had a voice. How silly of me, only Minnan Hua speakers have a voice. :loco:[/quote]
The minority invaders 5 and a half decades ago IMPOSED the Mandarin language on a majority that spoke the Taiwanese dialect of the Minnan language. If the majority of the people of Taiwan want Taiwanese to be the official language of Taiwan, why shouldn’t it be. Personally, I think there should be at least three languages recognized as official national languages, and not only the minority Mandarin language.