Prozac

Life Health & Fitness
41

[quote=“Southpaw”]How come I meet so many people here who are on this kind of shit? Is it Taiwan that does it to you, or do you bring these problems with you? If the latter, is it really a good idea to move to a completley different country if you are a depressive?
not having a dig…just interested[/quote]
Answers given in the order you asked them.

Don’t know and don’t know how I could find out.

Taiwan definitely didn’t do it to me and I assume Taiwan didn’t do it to most of the people in Taiwan with similar disorders. My own disorder has a strong link to genius :smiley:. Although I’ve definitely had many less than desirable experiences because of it, I personally wouldn’t label it as a problem (others might). It (if it can be an it) is a big part of what makes me, me.

Yes, it was. The US has a totally different perspective on drugs and medication than they do here in Taiwan. The US had me medicated at a level that stifled my motivation, creativity and desire. This lead me to quiting medication, getting my mojo back (feeling myself again) then having a psychotic episode that would land me back in the hospital and start the whole ride over again. I was fortunate enough to have my previous episode here in Taiwan.

From what I remember :blush: things were handled pretty much the same here as they would have been back home up until I had my bi-monthly visits with the doctor. The doctor/s here started me on a lower dosage and told me he’d back me off of the medication until I/we found a good level or until I was off completely. This never happened (and never would) in the US and the fact that he put it to me like that encouraged me to try taking an staying on meds. Before getting put on medication here (I wasn’t taking them when I arrived) I firmly believed that if given the choice between taking medications (living a life of perpetual TV watching, no motivation, etc.) and being a crazy outcast that walked the streets talking to himself I would choose the latter.

I’m very certain that coming to Taiwan has helped my situation, because in the US I’d either be over-medicated and on SSI, or going through cycles of over-medication, stopping medication, feeling good, going manic (so the doctors tell me, and experience agrees) and landing in the hospital to start the whole process over again (and more than likely lose any job or money I had in the process).

I hope that helps your research.

42

Most people who are here an encounter a depression has nothing to do with running away from something. I have figured out in my time, that life is gonna hand you some lemons and some of those dammed lemons are going to be so fucking sour that you need to take something to remove the bitterness, so you don’t idenitify with the bitterness. It’s a case by case situation Southpaw, I think Taiwan can unearth somethings in people that aren’t evident when they live at home, because when you are at home there are ways to avoid having to deal with certain things. And some times the exprience itself can cause depression because what ever it means for someone. And sometimes it’s just apart of your nature.
It’s in our societial beliefs now that it’s best to place one self on meds if you have the low mojo pass the prescribed 2 week period. Especially in America, where they are drug crazy now. IMHO, I think that most cases of depression would not last as long if there was a stronger support system for people to just be able to express themselves. But being that the world is so caught up in ‘what’s in it for me’ then there will always be depression found in people no matter where you are.

43

Strong disagreement here. As someone has pointed out (I guess it’s a different thread), serious depression is a matter of brain chemistry. If your brain’s chemistry isn’t inherently screwed up, the pills won’t do much for you. It’s when you’re not producing the right levels of neurotransmitters in the right spots that the pills magically force a correction. And some pills work for some people, and don’t work for others, simply for that reason – take the wrong drug, it ups the wrong chemical in the wrong spot, and nothing happens (or you go berserk, or have a seizure, or go catatonic). Right drug, voila, you’re suddenly bouncing along and all is well with the world.

Besides, Forumosa gives us an outlet to express ourselves. :loco:

I know one sanctimonious twit who walks around constantly with a big grin on his ugly mug, and it’s because he’s got neurotransmitters coming out his wazoo. He’s probably got your neurotransmitters there too. Let me know if you want to go get them from him and I’ll give you his address.

44

A quick search shows that it is available under the name Depakine here. In general, if you know at least the generic name you can go into Shanghai Union and they can look it up in their big book to see what other names it goes by. Unless it is controlled, you should be able to get it OTC there.[/quote]

Thanks much! :notworthy:

45

Mapo, sorry to disagree with you buddy but I think you’ve fallen victim to the propaganda machine on this one. If only it was as simple as you make it seem. I’m more than willing to back up my disagreement with sources other then me if you like, but I think it’s best that we start a new thread to continue the debate or have this one split (that’s assuming you do want to continue).

I can remember a doctor telling me one takes medication so it’s already present in your system when an episode (of depression or whatever) happens. The time between these episodes vary from person to person. One person could suffer from these episodes daily, even hourly, while another might only experience them once a year or more.

You make it seem like doctors using medication to “fix” people is as easy as a mechanic using tools to fix a car. Unfortunately, it’s not. I bold-faced the one part that I agree with so it’s clear where my disagreement lies (everywhere else).

46

I already wrote a bit about this earlier in the thread, but at the risk of repeating some things…

I have come to believe that those who tell you that medication will solve all your woes are completely wrong. And those who tell you that talk therapy will solve all your woes are also completely wrong. And those who tell you to ‘stop whining and get over it’ are the most wrong of all.

Everyone is a different case, and without careful examination, you cannot tell which person will respond to which. Those that have real problems in their lives will just be avoiding the problems by going on medication. Those who have whacky brain chemistry will not solve that problem by going to talk therapy. You need to look at each case and see what is the problem.

If someone has frequent, or long running depressive episodes that seem unrelated to actual events in their lives, chances are they need medication. However, depression also tends to set up bad habits and practices that talk therapy could help deal with. Those of us in this camp probably will need long-term medication.

On the other hand, someone going through very difficult situations who experiences depression based on that is probably best suited for talk therapy. And they might be temporarily placed on medication so that they can move forward productively with their lives, but they almost certainly do not need long-term medication.

It is a complicated disorder that doesn’t have very reliable tests to show which category you fall into. Those who insist that either medication or talk therapy is the right way to deal with it, without a serious and in depth look at the individual patient is not serving his patients well.

For those of us with frequent and long periods of depression probably need to be medicated long-term because anti-depressants take a while to kick in (usually 2-4 weeks, depending on the medication and the person), and when a serious episode happens, actually making and appointment, dragging yourself to the doctor and then going to pick up a prescription can seem an overwhelming task. I’ve not been good at following this, and I’ve gone over a year unmedicated between episodes. It’s easy to slip into a state of mind where it is all hopeless when an episode strikes and end up not seeking the help you need for a while.

And even when medication is the choice, not everyone responds to every medication equally, and different medications or levels of medication can make huge differences. It can take a lot of trial and error to find the right medicine and dosage that solves the problem with minimum of side effects. This process can be discouraging because it takes a while for effects to kick in, and many doctors are not patient enough to try different things and do not set the right expectations in their patients. Too many doctors will just prescribed 100mg of Brand-X because that’s the hot new pill that everyone is talking about, or it is the one he’s always prescribed. Unfortunately it isn’t that easy.

And unfortunately scientists still don’t clearly understand why or how things work. In the case of SSRIs like Prozac, they know that it blocks the brain’s recycling of Serotonin, and they know basically what Serotonin does, but they still don’t understand how it all fits together. In the case of other medicines, they have very little idea what it actually does. Lithium is commonly used for manic-depression (aka bipolar), but the best they can come up with as to how it works is that it might alter conductivity in the brain. With Wellbutrin they know it elevates certain neuro-transmitters, but don’t really know how it does that. The brain still remains one of the least understood organs in the body.

47

Excellent post, jlick! :slight_smile:

48

Indeed. This stuff of life stuff is sure complicated. Brain chemistry affects your thoughts and emotions and the the thoughts you choose and the feelings associated with them in turn affect your brain chemistry. And of course all of this takes place within a physical and social environment which also affects thoughts, emotions and brain chemistry. You can step in at any point and change things. You can choose to think differently or move into or create a different environment. You can work with the brain chemistry directly. Or, ideally, you can do all three simultaneously. For myself I just realized that I had gotten awfully tired of feeling listless and irritable all the time. Buddhist psychology, exercise, creative activity, and yes, prozac, have given me an entirely more positive outlook on life. I break them in half and take two or three a week. It is a miniscule dose but it seems to have a positive effect. It seems to me like such a terrible waste if a person needs this kind of medication and doesn’t get it, which is why I reacted so negatively to it being called “shit” earlier. And nobody is “a” depresive. We are all so much more than that.

49

The doctors at Tai Da University clinic will easily prescribe any drug after asking a few questions. Check out their procedures on the website.

50

You took me the wrong way bob- ‘shit’ is an incredibly flexible word nowadays. I meant it as ‘stuff’. As for using ‘a’, it comes from studying depression as a part of my psychology degree- a bad habit I suppose. But based on this logic a we shouldn’t call a murderer a murderer and we shouldnt call a spade a spade.

51

Sorry if I seem overly particular in this regard but I believe that it is extremely important to frame these things in the right language. People who suffer from depression frequently hang on to a lot of unhealthy thought patterns. I am useless. I always fuck up etc. A big part of recovery involves learning to simply think differently. Nobody is “a” depressive. They suffer from depression. Partly because they learned somewhere to be overly critical of themselves. They can unlearn that habit and a good place to start on that unlearning process is with standing up to negative labels imposed by other people That is what I am doing here and it feels great.

52

:bravo: :bravo: Right on bob…I know that has been a large part of my problem as I get older and more observent of my depression . Jlick, hit it also. What its going to take is to do something comprehesive which doctors wont do(because they are too busy too) to find out their patient’s cause and reason for depression.
I actually spoke with a therapist recently who posed a question to me about a case he had heard. A young girl wittnessed her twin being smothered to death next to her. The doctor talking about the subject comment that the girl would have to be on antidepressants for quite a period of time in order for her life to be ‘normal’. That just pushed a big button to me because it is just rank of how american doctors are thinking. They are believeing that these pills are the answer and ignoring all other aspects that contribute to humans. Funny, I would like to see the studies they come out with on kids who have been on ritlian for years, when they were actually ‘normal’ and to see how their brains have altered because of the influnce of drugs had on them…

53

Absolutely. We are dealing with profound, complicated issues here. Giving that girl antidepressants may interupt the grieving process so completely that she never really heals. In my case it is entirely clear that a delicate balance has to be maintained. Too much and I start feeling kind of detached and (to be honest) egotistical. It really is a lonely feeling. Too little though and things start looking terribly bleak. We are beyond lucky to have these drugs at our disposal but caution has to be the order of the day.

54

[quote=“LittleBuddhaTW”]
Insomnia is a common side-effect of Prozac. Change your dose to the morning and you should be fine. If that doesn’t work, you can also get something to help you sleep, like Ativan, Xanax, or Clonzazepam (Klonopin).[/quote]

Wow! No criticism of LittelBuddha, just quoting him to capture the tone of the thread.

My goodness ladies and gentlemen, are we SOOO fucked up that we need to dose ourselves with the drug(s) of the year on a daily basis? Why not try simply suffering through whatever emotional pain it is you’re experiencing? Might not you learn something?

With all due respect to those who truly benefit by ‘drug therapy’ under extraordinary circumstances, I question the rate at which an increasing number of relatively healthy people are turning to these drugs rather than confronting the true causes of their symptoms.

Hey, I like drugs. I like them a lot. I used to abuse them often. And if you ask me, all the drugs you’re talking about here are total crap. Valium? Prozac? What garbage! Why not just put yourself in a straightjacket and bang your head against the wall.

You are poster children of the drug industry and the global economists. You perceive that you are anxious and depressed, and rather than wonder why and try to do something about it, you take ‘the little pill’ produced by the source of your problem! Amazing. Depression and anxiety are common symptoms for those of us living in modern, fast paced, urban environments. When I feel overly anxious and depressed, I generally find that quitting my job and/or moving to a new environment helps (assuming I can’t change the factors of job/environment that I perceive are causing the problems).

Beyond that, personal tragedy is a fact of life. We all must experience it. A drug, or a cocktail of drugs, will never protect you from it. Bob says that:

Well, yes, things are bleak. They’re very fucking bleak. That is life. It’s bleak shit. We live, eat, sleep, shit, and die. But we expect constant excitement, stimulation, and good movies. Bob is right. Life is bleak. Perhaps once we come to terms with that, we can start to really appreciate the beauty that is this life. But, if we’re zoned out on Prozac and whatnot, we simply block the bleakness and never really break through.

Again, with all due respect to those who truly benefit from such drugs…

55

Ah yes, just a few posts after my post about the fallacy of making sweeping generalizations about what treatment is appropriate, you go and make a sweeping generalization that most people on Prozac shouldn’t be. I agree that there is a tendency to treat anyone feeling down with anti-depressants, but despite your disclaimers, your post is insulting to those whose depression is sometimes so great that they can’t function in life.

56

Yes hoedad we all know that life can be a bitch and we all know about the stresses of modern life and we know that we need to be looking for peaceful, tranquil surroundings and listening to our inner selves and attempting to achieve harmonius relations with others, and we know about the benefits of exercise and meditation. And we know that you can learn so much by living through difficult times. We know so goddamed much and we still feel like hell so we came to the conclusion that a couple of chemicals were out of whack. And from our experience that seems like the correct conclusion. We are now happier and more useful to ourselves and our loved ones. What was your objection again exactly?

57

Hoedad, it not as simple as you put it. It’s not always emotional pain, and it’s not always chemical. Sometimes it’s a little bit of both. You post bothers me a little because it come across as someone who hasn’t been there or lack compassion enough to see what may bring someone to have to use these resourses. Using prozac or any other drug is simply a step. ANyone who truly desires to remove themselves from a certain level of stress that life brings would be wise to use them until they are at a better level. It’s easy to say to suffer thru that emotional pain and learn something. But what if that emotional pain clouds your mind so much that you can’t learn anything because the stress is creating a malfuction in your body? These drugs work on a level to correct your system, that’s if you can find the right dosage and have the correct support system. Otherwise yes, you can be a poster child for these drugs. Hoedad, you need to listen more in this case, because I don’t think the shit has hit the fan in your life yet…

58

You’re both right. I was being an insensitive twit.

59

[quote=“hoedad”]You’re both right. I was being an insensitive twit.[/quote]Yes you were. Obviously don’t see the difference between people in a bad mood and a physical desease. Do you say the same thing about people with other phyisical deseases ? People with cancer should pull themselves together and stop whining. Chemotherepy ? What a con !
But it does have a enviromental aspect, it can be brought on or made worse by experiences (I only need medication while in Taiwan), but it is still no less a chemical inbalance than diabetes.

60

Which brings us full circle back to the good part of hoedads original post. Personally I think I probably need less here. It was the West that drove me nuts in the first place.