Yes, the old “you should have seen it in” 1950, 1960, 1970, 1980, 1990, quip. How it took hours to get from one side of town to the other, no cheese to be had, or how it took the whole day to get to Kaohsiung. Doesn’t help us poor sods living in the here and now
[quote=“headhonchoII”]protests from ‘the little people’.
[/quote]
Ah, yes, those pesky working-class types on scooters that the one-percenters like to swat away like so many flies as they drive down the street in their upper-middle-class cars.
SlowRain and his ‘working class vs the 1% percenters’ analysis of the scooter problem in Taiwan. A rather new, rather wacky interpretation of the problem, but hell, any input at this stage is better than nothing.
Keep 'em coming
Help? What help do you need? Just hop on the MRT.
Um, the guy who suggested replacing scooters with cars is calling others wacky. In addition to ‘farce’, you may want to look up ‘ironic’ in the dictionary.
If you cared to look at the problem with anything resembling objectivity, you’d see that what I said actually is part of the problem. For starters, Taiwan is extremely crowded. Wages have historically been low because that’s how it built its economy: cheap manufacturing because of cheap labor. When people don’t earn much money, they can’t buy cars, which was your brilliant suggestion. People started with bicycles, and then moved on to scooters. Crowding prevents many from using cars for commuting, but the Taiwanese haven’t had a raise in 10-15 years. It’s hard to buy, register, insure, maintain, and park a car–your brilliant solution–when you have less and less money left over at the end of the month.
However, despite your belief that your thread is somehow finally discussing a taboo topic, this topic has actually been done to death–and largely by the same group of people: newbies who are scared of scooters and upper-middle-class people who find them a bother in their very important lives.
I’m going to assume you haven’t been in Taiwan very long. Your observations lack broad understanding, and your knowledge of the people and the situation is tenuous. Improve public transport: yes. Restrict car usage: yes. Improve things for pedestrians and cyclists: yes. Decrease scooter usage: yes, but only after the car problem has been solved first.
Scooters are not going away anytime soon. But probably the better thing to do is to move away from gas powered scoots to electric ones, if range can be ok. Just like moving away from 2 stroke (lots of visible pollution) to cleaner 4 stroke, the next move would be to electric. Govt subsidies, like a tax break would help.
People who buy electric cars in California can claim as much as 10,000 off their annual earnings for the first year that they buy the car ! This is an incentive that has teeth.
I advocate changing to electric scoots . Will reduce a lot of air pollution and reduce a lot of noise.
SlowRain’s takeaway from my postings is that I believe more cars is the solution. A rather wacky, rather selective interpretation of what I wrote, but I appreciate the input nonetheless. As I said, it’s an important topic in my opinion, and one that needs debating.
SlowRain, you mention cheap labor and cheap manufacturing as part of the problem. Yes, sure, in some aspects no doubt this is part of the problem. As country and economy rise in general, infrastructure and creative, tech and societal solutions to traffic problems increase I’d imagine.
No I definitely don’t think this is a taboo topic, and I’ve been here many years.
You’re the one who suggested replacing scooters with cars, not me. And, if you have been here for years, it’s a little embarrassing that you 1. haven’t realized you aren’t the first one to bring this topic up, and 2. are so unaware of society around you and how it operates. Just because people do something you don’t like or want to do doesn’t automatically make them wrong. Also, just because you personally don’t like the way every one of these ‘debates’ has always gone in the past doesn’t mean you’re automatically right. Unless you have some new feasible solution–which you don’t, by the way–you just come across as whiny because the scooters hurt your ears.
Yes Tommy, I would think rebates, “green” rewards, etc must somehow be a part of the equation. And yes, I think Taiwan govt must finally agree on electric as way forward.
The challenge of course will be in the details. Pedestrians, cars, garbage trucks, scooters mostly share roads, lanes, tinier lanes and so on. (downtown city areas being the exceptions). Scooters come screaming down lanes, cut corners tight, the young dudes with their new shiny scooters, A-ma oblivious to everything, etc, we jump out the way every 3 seconds. Now, electric scooters, how the hell do we hear the things coming? I haven’t yet seen this debate in the public. A built in electronic sound? Will it be loud enough, and so on.
We have that problem here in California where electric cars have mowed down people because they are soundless. There is talk here about legislating some sort of synthetic motor noise.
[quote=“BlownWideOpen”]SlowRain’s takeaway from my postings is that I believe more cars is the solution. A rather wacky, rather selective interpretation of what I wrote, but I appreciate the input nonetheless. As I said, it’s an important topic in my opinion, and one that needs debating.
SlowRain, you mention cheap labor and cheap manufacturing as part of the problem. Yes, sure, in some aspects no doubt this is part of the problem. As country and economy rise in general, infrastructure and creative, tech and societal solutions to traffic problems increase I’d imagine.
No I definitely don’t think this is a taboo topic, and I’ve been here many years.[/quote]
You have directly said that more cars and fewer scooters is part of your solution. That’s not a selective interpretation.
The problem is that this is the most densely population country in the world. Noise and pandemonium are to a certain extent a given. Scooters are actually a decent midrange option that don’t exist in many countries with far worse traffic problems. The key is to present better options than scooters (cars are not it in any way). Suggestions of more walking, more bicycling, more car pooling are almost empty solutions that make the normal person just roll their eyes at your solutions. Face it - walking anything more than 1km in the heat sucks (and some would consider that silly). Riding a bike in the heat and rain sucks. This is coming from someone that enjoys walking and biking and I personally use these options a lot myself but I don’t view them as a potential replacement for the masses when compared to the ease of a scooter.
Abacus, yes that is selective interpretation. “My solution involves a holistic approach - more cars, better use of buses, more MRT use, more walking, more bicycling, more car pooling, etc.” would be an accurate interpretation, as obviously more cars only is not the solution. And I clearly state that I have no idea whether these suggestions would be able to absorb the surplus, and that expert analysis is needed.
People are already using more bicycling, and yes, more walking within 1km to increasing MRT stations is already taking place, and buses have improved with the front, middle and back swiping method. Who’s to say these things aren’t reducing the number of scooters in some areas
Starting with the major cities and their surrounding counties, I’d say, scooter reduction and/or electric option is definitely feasible. Educating people on options for not using scooters and promoting those options is the way forward. The current setup is not the way Taiwan wants to continue forward. They’re noisy, dangerous things that f up the whole atmosphere of Taiwan. As someone who road scooters for ten years, I fully understand their convenience. But damn, Taiwan can and should strive to be better, any country should, this is what citizens expect from governments
Tommy, yes a synthetic built-in noise like in the futuristic movies. Seems do-able. A more pleasant sound.
On second thinking, what poster ‘Ducked’ mentioned about educating the drivers on better driving etiquette, yes Ducked, I can see this definitely being a part of the equation moving forward. Tons and tons of public awareness campaigns. Citizens need to be aware that things can be better. In my neighborhood for example, the guys on the jacked up, ultra loud scooters come screaming by late at night, it reverberates through the walls and into your skull, it’s incredible that young mothers haven’t voiced this to their local representatives.
I’m up for a wild Asian night of sweat, noise, lights and excitement as much as the next fella, but as we get older, quality of life becomes more important - being able to take two steps without scooters whizzing by you, not having to jump out of the way every two seconds, being able to have a conversation on the side of the street or sitting outside the coffee shop.
The point is probably moot anyway when looking at the big picture, as previous poster reminded us: in 1980 it was no doubt unbearable, in 1990 it was bad, in 2000 it got better, better still in 2010 with bicycling culture, growing MRT lines, etc. 2020, 2030 should see solid improvement. In the mean time, sensitive chaps like me will just have to grin and bear it I suppose. Change will come when change comes, at it’s own pace.
You are aware that other countries in the world are exploring small, personal transports (ie. scooters) as a way to reduce their traffic congestion problems, aren’t you? It’s ironic (there’s that word again) that your deeply-held solution is counter to what people who study these things are considering. That goes to show you what happens when the experts get involved. Or, another way of looking at it, it simply shows your anti-scooter bias and your inability to look for a feasible solution (again, ironic, considering you used that word in the title of this very thread).
The problem right from the start is that you are biased: you hate scooters. You can never have people with a bias discussing things like this because they’ll never look broadly enough. Because you hate scooters, you think everyone else should hate them, too. You start to present your analysis of how you think Taiwan would be better off without them. But you didn’t for one second stop to consider the economy, road space, population density, nor are you very aware of the traffic situations is other countries. Your reasoning isn’t very broad. As a case in point, where is all this electricity going to come from to power all these new electric scooters? Another nuclear power plant or two? If that’s the case, I vote the nuclear power plant gets built just a little upwind and upstream from your residence. Also, at present, electric scooters have a shorter range, slower refill/charging times, and are too slow for longish commutes. Does that sound feasible to you?
You’re not the first high-minded foreigner to come here and dump on scooters and the way locals do things and then claim to have the grand solution. If only the locals were as smart as you, right? Please remember, we’re expatriates, not colonialists.
Don’t take it all so seriously SlowRain. Relax and enjoy the chat. We’ll leave the flame wars for another thread, or after I’ve had a few drinks. For now, let’s get some intelligent input. If you have any solutions/suggestions/intelligent points, etc to the scooter issues in Taiwan, let’s hear them. If you don’t believe there is a scooter problem in Taiwan, then obviously you’re in the wrong thread. Continue to enjoy your life in Taiwan, minus scooter problem
I’m talking to those who do believe there is a scooter problem here - ranging from believing it’s slightly a problem to it being a severe problem. I’d like to hear what they have to say
I was already operating under the assumption you had too much to drink based on your suggestions so far.
Again, the guy who wants to replace some scooters with cars, who didn’t know other countries are trying to introduce small personal transports, who didn’t factor in the increased electricity requirement of electric scooters is asking for intelligent input? You don’t see the irony there? You’re not looking for intelligent input; you’re just looking for a like-minded, anti-scooter lobby to whinge to. And you’re doing it under the guise looking for a “solution”.
There have been a number of solutions mentioned already, most of which are in the various stages of implementation, yet you keep acting like none of this is happening and that you’re bringing up something new.
Very smart, you got me SlowRain. You can depart this thread knowing that you’ve put another high-minded colonialist in his place. Well played sir
For the rest of us like-minded, anti-scooter whiners, we will continue to whinge and moan, as pathetic as we are
Tommy, tell me more about what happened in California with electric cars and pedestrians. I’ve seen a few electric cars/scooters in Taiwan, and boy, do they whisk by like the wind.
Anyone been to Japan recently. How is the scooter situation there? Any takeaways for Taiwan?
The problem is, attitudes like yours indirectly affect foreigners who are trying to make a go of it here.
Firstly, and I say this with no trace of sarcasm whatsoever, you will not enjoy your experience here so long as you keep focusing negatively on this issue. Not just because of the all the negativity it inherently causes, but change will come at a pace that you don’t agree with, which will only draw out your negativity over a much longer period. Taiwan has a lot of offer for people who give it a fair shot, but it does require open-mindedness and tolerance.
Secondly, foreigners used to enjoy a much better status in Taiwan, but that has slowly been eroded away. The initial wave of awe was wasted because of the drinking and partying. More recently, some very uptight foreigners have been captured on video ranting about all the problems in Taiwan and how the Taiwanese are wrong, stupid, etc. While this makes me look good in the eyes of people who know me personally–because, obviously, I’m more tolerant than that–it collectively diminishes the opinion of foreigners here, which I think is going to hurt us in the long run.
I ask you to reconsider your hatred of scooters in light of this. Many people here, locals and foreigners, are just trying to make a got of it. Not all of us have oodles of money for a car. The government doesn’t have oodles of money to just redesign the city. We’re all trying to do our best. But, I hope you realize this by now, many of your solutions are already being implemented, so you’re late to the party–and some of your other “solutions” are either not well thought-out or completely out of touch with what is transpiring in the world of transportation. Give up on your obsession with scooters and look at the bigger picture.
SlowRain, are you still here?
I’d have thought someone as enlightened as you would have better things to do than hang around a bunch of dead-beat scooter whiners.
Thank you for the advise on how to be a better expat in Taiwan. My fellow scooter whiners and I will make an effort to be better role models. Please keep up the good fight
slow rain, you are on the one going off on a tangent ‘foreigner this, foreigner that’. Lots of locals don’t like noisy polluting, dangerous scooters either. For a start an electric scooter or bike would be a massive advance due to no local emissions and less street noise. Most scooters could recharge at night and I highly doubt their power requirements will have a large effect on any grid. In the end most people will use MRTs and simple electric bikes or bikes than switch to using electric scooters. in some instances small electric cars would be a far superior option to scooters I terms of safety. Future driverless electric cars will most likely be the thing for personal transport and they will be shared and not need parking as they constantly circulate on the road network. Scooters are a shit option in terms or safety of driver and family. scooters also expose the rider to the rain, pollution and sun, don’t know many women in particular who like that! Scooters also take up parking space on pavements. Therefore more cars (of the right sort), and less scooters, can indeed be part of the solution!