OrangeOrganics taking a risk, sticking with the “more cars” strategy. Hasn’t worked out too well for Abacus and SlowRain, but let’s see if OrangeOrganics can pull it off
[quote=“BlownWideOpen”]
My claws are sharp and ready, let’s go![/quote]
One can only hope they’re sharper than your wit.
At this point, you’re just grandstanding. You’ve offered precious little in this thread towards discussion to begin with, and your last several posts have been devoid of anything save taunting. One could assume you’re trying to fish for support, but it’s also dangerously close to trolling.
Answer an issue directly: Would you rather be hit by a car or a scooter?
“can buses, MRT, cars absorb the surplus? MRT lines increasing all the time. Less scooters means buses have less obstructed routes, higher efficiency. Traffic in general would flow better without all those scooters, no?”
“I’m not proposing anything. I’m no city planner/traffic expert. This whole topic is wide open.”
“It’s a holistic approach - better buses and more bus use, more cars in certain areas, type of cars, etc, more MRT use, more bicycling, more walking, etc”
That is what I said.
You guys keep going on and on about more cars, more cars, more cars. If this was a political debate or the Bill O’Reilly show I’d commend you for drilling down hard on any point that could be a weakness. But this is just a discussion on a forum
Now come on. Have you got something for me to dig my claws into or not?!
You made the most ridiculous point you could. More cars is terrible in every instance. The idea of building cities around the motorcar is a relic from the 20th century.
[quote=“SlowRain”][quote=“BlownWideOpen”]
My claws are sharp and ready, let’s go![/quote]
One can only hope they’re sharper than your wit.
At this point, you’re just grandstanding. You’ve offered precious little in this thread towards discussion to begin with, and your last several posts have been devoid of anything save taunting. One could assume you’re trying to fish for support, but it’s also dangerously close to trolling.
Answer an issue directly: Would you rather be hit by a car or a scooter?[/quote]
Good on you SlowRain, ante up and get back into the fight.
I would rather be hit by a scooter
Go back and reread what you posted. You haven’t suggested anything that isn’t already in the process of being done. The sole idea that you have had that is original to you and you alone was to introduce more cars as part of your holistic approach. It seems you’re on the same page as everyone on this forum and in this country for things that are already being implemented; but when you start to have thoughts of your own, that’s where you come up short. Stick to just repeating what others have said. It serves you better in your case.
You also keep mentioning a holistic approach. Again, more irony, because your analysis of the problem is very single-minded: scooters, scooters, scooters. Even some people in this thread who share your dislike of scooters have a broader understanding of what is all entailed in “the problem”.
Nope, nothing to claw into there.
But go back to your “would you rather be hit by a car or scooter” question. I think you have something there to explore
Scooters AND cars are the problem, but the title was about the scooter problem so let’s debate the scooter problem as the priority? Scooters are a problem for Numerous reasons
- massive numbers
- huge concentrations of engines at an intersection resulting in pollution spikes
- take up too much urban space when parked on pavements
- poorly designed for safety and not suitable for carrying kids
- noisy
- no decent catalytic converters
Obviously taiwan needs to rapidly ramp up investment in urban MRT and LRT systems , Japan has had the solution decades ago, no need to reinvent the wheel!
Bet you guys don’t know that Hsinchu once had electric streetcars. I’ve seen pictures but I haven’t been able to find any on the Internet! Man Hsinchu is some dump everything that’s wrong about urban planning here.
For most rural areas an electric scooter would be just fine.
Actually some towns in taiwan should be completed redeveloped but Taipei govt will never invest
In hinterland.
Heres a good analysis about bikes and scooters.
thirdwavecyclingblog.wordpress. … nd-taipei/
I think the issue we’re bumping into here heahhonch is one of age and years lived in Taiwan. 3,5,7,10 years ago I would have had the same reaction to my thread - “don’t be such wimp, what scooter problem”?
Remember guys and gals, everyone hits the deck, sooner or later. If you haven’t yet, you will. We’re all full of piss and vinegar when younger, but nothing like a few broken bones and trip to ER to take a little step out of your bounce. Especially too if loved ones - family, wives, kids, etc - are a part of the equation.
Also, you become more sensitive to the noise here as time goes by. It’s not an issue when you’re younger
I’m curious. Those with wives, kids, girlfriends - do you take them on scooters?
I shudder thinking about all those nights with lady on back and the reckless chances I took for many many years here. I was f’ing stupid
To stop people riding scooters, make it inconvenient to ride a scooter. Charge a congestion charge in city centers.
[quote=“headhonchoII”]Scooters AND cars are the problem, but the title was about the scooter problem so let’s debate the scooter problem as the priority? Scooters are a problem for Numerous reasons
- massive numbers
- huge concentrations of engines at an intersection resulting in pollution spikes
- take up too much urban space when parked on pavements
- poorly designed for safety and not suitable for carrying kids
- noisy
- no decent catalytic converters
Obviously taiwan needs to rapidly ramp up investment in urban MRT and LRT systems , Japan has had the solution decades ago, no need to reinvent the wheel!
Bet you guys don’t know that Hsinchu once had electric streetcars. I’ve seen pictures but I haven’t been able to find any on the Internet! Man Hsinchu is some dump everything that’s wrong about urban planning here.
For most rural areas an electric scooter would be just fine.
Actually some towns in taiwan should be completed redeveloped but Taipei govt will never invest
In hinterland.
Heres a good analysis about bikes and scooters.
thirdwavecyclingblog.wordpress. … nd-taipei/[/quote]
Excellent find there, nice robust look at the issues.
“In Taiwan, the focus of shifting people to cycling is not so much the private car but more the shifting of motorcyclists. The number of motorcyclists exceeds car drivers on the road. The needless, annual death and serious injuries of your people under 30 is a prime factor for shifting, as well.”
Would be great to see change accelerated so we see real, tangible benefits within 2-5 years. If parents can get in from the safety of our kids point of view, industry from a new technologies profit areas point of view, and the general public from a “proud of our modern, beautiful, relatively air and noise pollution free country” point of view, we could really get this thing going. Speaking for Taipei, I love the city and really hope to enjoy it for a long time to come.
[quote=“SlowRain”]Go back and reread what you posted. You haven’t suggested anything that isn’t already in the process of being done. The sole idea that you have had that is original to you and you alone was to introduce more cars as part of your holistic approach. It seems you’re on the same page as everyone on this forum and in this country for things that are already being implemented; but when you start to have thoughts of your own, that’s where you come up short. Stick to just repeating what others have said. It serves you better in your case.
You also keep mentioning a holistic approach. Again, more irony, because your analysis of the problem is very single-minded: scooters, scooters, scooters. Even some people in this thread who share your dislike of scooters have a broader understanding of what is all entailed in “the problem”.[/quote]
I was stupid enough to suggest some big brother, futurist-tech-hybrid idea of RFID tags and fines. You should be attacking me for this idiotic idea
“it would have to roll out one area/district? at a time? how to legislate and police it? CCTV cameras, RFID tags in license plates? First 1, 2, 3 infractions are forgiven but then 1,000/2,000NT? fine in the mail? A type of “field” of sensors automatically picking up RFID tag in license plate? Surely this technology is dirt cheap and very easy for Taiwan to do (all the manufactures are already here!)”
It’s hilarious how you say that you never said that cars were
PART
of the solution and then you quote yourself saying that people should shift to several things that includes more cars. Is it really impossible to see why we are bringing this up? More cars is 0% of any improvement in the big picture. It is an improvement for an individual (no rain, safer, AC, comfort, etc…) though.
And now you are completely misrepresenting almost everyone’s arguments. Nobody loves scooters the way that they are implemented in Taiwan. Nobody is disagreeing that they are dangerous and overall a shitty option of transport. But you can’t just spout off holistic bullshit like people
should
walk more, ride bikes more and take the bus more. If people wanted to do that they would do it now. The fact is that these damned scooters are firmly entrenched in Taiwan and you need to offer something better instead of holistic bullshit to get people to switch.
Long term the MRT in all major cities (and not just Taipei) is a big part of the solution but it will have taken Kaohsiung 8-9 years to complete a 3rd line (initially completed in 2008 - 3rd line in 2016/17 which will greatly improve the system but still be limited compared to what is really needed. Until then we are going to need to look for incremental improvements like improving traffic enforcement (which is actually much better than SE Asia) and getting rid of the worst emitting scooters. An e-scooter program could work but the manufacturers (and gov’t) have so far had their heads up their asses and produced complete shit although there are some interesting models in development.
Abacus back into the fray. Getting rather desperate. Not changing his game plan, but sticking with the “cars” play again. Let’s see if this tactic pays off for him
No, we won’t be separating out cars just for your convenience, although I understand you’d like to avoid the issue. He was brilliant enough to suggest adding more cars, so he has to live with the consequences, and that includes leaving them in the discussion.
There are massive numbers of cars as well on this little island, which is already too small for many to enjoy a decent enough amount of space as their own.
Huge pollution spikes at intersections are offset by total pollution emitted per person per journey/km. I don’t think cars can win that one on a vehicle-by-vehicle basis unless there are at least 3 or 4 people in the car. Heavy cars are not exactly fuel efficient.
Scooters take up a lot less space than cars anywhere they are parked. I have no idea what you were thinking when you typed this. You actually disproved what you’re trying to argue for.
Safety, as we have already discussed, really only becomes an issue when scooters are smashed into by the too many cars which are on this crowded, congested little island (see above).
Scooters are not noisy unless there’s something wrong or altered with the exhaust. This applies to cars, too, but you don’t want to admit that, do you?
One point on the catalytic converters, for now.
Also, just a comment on the statistics in that link you posted. Most statistics posted by the anti-scooter contingent have always backfired, and this one is no different. Scooters and motorcycles outnumber cars by more than 60% in Taiwan, yet of the deaths mentioned in that article, only 60% were attributed to scooters. That actually means scooters are safer than cars. That always, always, always happens to you and Tommy when you post statistics. I’ll say it again, and put it in bold, because the anti-scooter contingent has difficulty reasoning on the facts: Scooters are actually safer than cars in Taiwan.
Look, guys. Taiwan is crowded. One of the most densely populated countries in the world, in fact. Most of us don’t come from countries this densely populated. In such densely populated situations like this, you want as much good public transportation as you can possibly finance. Secondly, you want either carpooling with four occupants in a car or else as many scooters as possible with two people. At any given time, you want as little space on your roads taken up by vehicles as you possibly can, and you want to keep traffic flowing efficiently at all times. Scooters are actually a part of the solution, always have been, but it does require a humble attitude and an understanding that you will get a few scrapes from time to time. On that last note, the Taiwanese do very well; certain foreigners not so much so.
Now, what kind of public transportation does Taiwan need? That’s actually very easy to answer: whatever it takes to get headhonchoII to switch from his car to public transportation. And whatever accomplishes that in Taipei is good enough for me to use in Taichung, too.
Honestly to get people to stop driving scooters, just make it inconvenient, no illegal parking and congestion charges. Taiwan could also stop subsiding fuel. The infrastructure problem will then solve itself. People don’t ride buses because its not convenient, its not convenient because scooters are so cheap and there are not enough buses. Just make driving expensive and inconvenient
One thing. One. In 10 pages, you managed one point. You come in here, stir up the anti-scooter contingent, get them to do your thinking and arguing for you, and then egg them on when they get slow. And you only offer one thing? That’s the definition of trolling. It’s time for you to enter the discussion in some meaningful way other than the mocking running commentary of the last couple pages.
You asked who takes passengers on their scooters. I regularly take my wife and occasionally take her son.
US Aid programs directed Taiwan’s post war development for decades. Same with Japan and much of Europe. NAFTA enables companies to sue over environmental and labor regulations that affect let’s say American businesses in Mexico. TPP is going to do the same.
FIFA and the Olympic community make all manner of demands on host countries. China makes demands on countries that it visits that they suppress local protests. The US Chamber of Commerce made statements in 2012 to affect the election.
This happens everywhere and all the time. You may not like it but it is the price you pay for inviting foreign business and workers into your country. It’s the price you pay for having an open society that’s part of the earth.
Taiwan is signatory to a rash of UN Human Rights bills so it is very much all of our rights to express whatever we want. You can dislike it, but law and custom are not on your side.[/quote]
Mucha Man, sorry for not replying sooner. I wasn’t ignoring you.
I understand what you’re getting at, and I do think you make good points, but that’s still not what I’m getting at. First off, many of those are political and treaties. I’ve already addressed politics in this thread. Treaties are fine as they are agreements freely entered into with other partner countries. The sporting organizations are definitely not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about people or companies coming here and then telling the locals how they should be doing things simply because they reside here and pay tax. It’s up to the locals and the locals alone to decide social issues, no matter how superior the expatriate or foreign business feels their ideas are. We have to respect that.
SlowRain with a nice regrouping and an impressive half game attack. Hold on big fella, let me get some shots in too:
What about all that babble about high minded colonialist foreigners, your out-dated electric and solar knowledge, your fixation on the car portion of discussion, your naive and unnecessary ramblings about policy influence from the West?
Also, to confirm, your position is that scooters are NOT noisy and dangerous?
See my previous post for high-minded foreigners and policy influences. Electric and solar still aren’t options in any meaningful way, and certainly not for the working class–and nothing has changed in the last couple days. You mentioned more cars as a feasible solution. Deal with it. Scooters are not loud unless the exhaust has been altered or needs fixing, and the death rate for scooters is lower than for cars.
Again, another post from you with mocking commentary and nothing to add to the discussion.