Real feasible solutions to the scooter problem

Life Cars & Motorcycles
101

But again, you have no problem with scooters, you think they’re safe and quiet and everything’s fine. Why are you still here in this anti-scooter thread? Why did you jump into the discussion in the first place?

Because you wanted to get alllll that negative foreigner in taiwan nonsense off your chest and you just couldn’t wait to pounce on any high minded colonialist. Stage 3 culture shock. You’ve been in Taiwan between 5-7 years

Now come on SlowRain, this discussion is for those who believe scooters are dangerous, noisy, polluting, and need to be greatly reduced and/or become electric.

Offer your solution, suggestion, proposal, musings, opinions along those lines or shut the f up

102

Then, according to your self-ruled criteria, I’m allowed to stay. But, I tend to be a believer in freedom of choice without outside influences, so I’d stay anyway.

Now, you, stop whining and grandstanding and post something meaningful already, or else we’ll just have to sit and wait for your proxies.

103

[quote=“SlowRain”]See my previous post for high-minded foreigners and policy influences. Electric and solar still aren’t options in any meaningful way, and certainly not for the working class–and nothing has changed in the last couple days. You mentioned more cars as a feasible solution. Deal with it. Scooters are not loud unless the exhaust has been altered or needs fixing, and the death rate for scooters is lower than for cars.

Again, another post from you with mocking commentary and nothing to add to the discussion.[/quote]

Old scooters are noisy and rattley as fuck, and gun any scooters and the decibels shoot up. Go to any intersection in the morning with 50 of them waiting, absorb the concentrated pollution of 50 engines and then enjoy the serene silence as they gun their engines together. During the morning migration one or two will always be taken out by the crocodiles but that’s the price to pay for looking for fresh grass lol.

You waffled a lot about solar power and electric tech and were caught out. Small electric cars could and very likely will offer a better alternative to both scooters and gasoline powered big cars. Electric scooters and bikes could handle 95% of rides in Taiwan but many like me just end up using buses and MRT. And trains or simply walking more! You also display a disturbing ability to absorb anti foreigner bias instead if rubbishing it for what is it, guys jealous of foreigners scoring hot local women. guilty as charged your honor!

Scooters are a solution to a problem that doesn’t really exist anymore in large parts of Taiwan. They are an example of quick and dirty tech that just isn’t going to provide the improved living standards of a first world country. In the end switching to buses, bikes, trains or just walking is feasible for most riders, they just want the quickest, cheapest, dirtiest and noisiest thing available to them. Cheap and convenient can be good for the individual but very bad for the masses.

104

Scooters are a nightmare. As I said congestion charge in all cities, lifted for electric vehicles. Congestion charges work.

105

I am a scooter fan. I love them. Riding a scooter is my favorite thing to do in Taiwan. Riding in the city is fun but can get frustrating. Riding in the mountains is an amazing way to see the island. I just ordered a new scooter with ABS and can’t wait to spend some quality time riding it in the mountains. I am AGAINST banning scooters.

However, I recognize there is an abundance of scooters but it is the same with cars. In my view both are a problem. We have to accept that it is traffic in general that is the problem. If all the scooters in Taiwan were removed you would still have traffic jams and pollution from all the cars.

I am just thinking from the top of my head and my ideas are based on the here and now. Here goes…

[I will use scooters and bikes interchangeably]

Scooters

  1. Enforce the law. Whatever comes next can only succeed if police and the authorities actually enforce the law, no exceptions.

  2. It is illegal to drive a scooter without a bike licence. Give people a one month amnesty as the law comes into force. Create random check points and if you are caught riding without a licence during the amnesty then you receive a fine. If you are caught after the amnesty then your scooter is confiscated to be crushed or sold and you receive a 50,000 NT fine.

  3. Number 2 also applies to people riding with children or more than one passenger. No exceptions.

  4. Introduce a comprehensive bike test. I was amazed at the number of people who turned up with a scooter, failed the test and drove away again. In addition, the test is a joke. Even the one day CBT (compulsory basic training) in the UK has more rigor. There doesn’t need to be a final pass or fail test but something like a 20 hour practical skills course where students must show a level of competency i order to be granted a licence.

  5. Scooters over 5 years old must receive a multiple point safety check each year, any safety or pollution issues must be fixed within a time period or authorities are notified and the scooter is deemed illegal to drive until there is proof that it has been repaired.

  6. Scooters over a certain age must be scrapped. To boost safety and reduce pollution. They can continue the scooter trade in scheme where you receive cash for your pile of shit.

  7. ABS is mandatory on all two-wheelers. No problem there because this law comes into effect in 2017. It only applies to new scooters but with point 6 there will be a gradual increase in the use of ABS. Eventually all bikes on the island will have this potentially life saving tech.

  8. Rotation system for use of bikes in city centers. Give scooters different color codes, on certain weekdays only specific colors can ride into the city center. Same at weekends. If your scooter is caught in the area when it is not supposed to be, 50, 000 NT fine. Caught three times and the bike is confiscated. The reason I suggest a rotation is that public transport wouldn’t cope. You can introduce cameras that instantly scan all licence plates to keep check on the vehicles. No need for police to try and catch you because you will get caught.

  9. Ban scooters in night markets. I cannot stand those fucking idiots who zoom through the night market like they are Valentino Rossi challenging for the Moto GP title. If you are caught, immediate confiscation.

Cars.

  1. One car per family of four or couple. No exceptions. This can either be done by mother, father and two kids or if you want to pool together and put your name on a car. You can only have your name on one car which means you have access to four wheels. I haven’t considered businesses but I would imagine no registering a Mercedes A class as part of your home removal fleet.

  2. Ban gas guzzling, too big for Taiwan’s roads, SUV’s. I sat behind 2 SUV’s (one was a Porsche Cayenne) who had blocked the road because they couldn’t pass each other. They are too big for the streets.

  3. See number 8 for scooters. Applies to cars also.

One last thing. While I agree that scooters are dangerous, sometimes four wheel drivers make it dangerous. Several times I have been riding in the mountains, only to ride round the corner and some idiot is on my side of the road. Desperate to pass a line of cars they think it is acceptable to drive round a blind corner.

106

Suggest everyone to read David Owen-Green Metropolis

Unlike most environmental writers, Owen does not see the solution in hybrids, electric cars, or hydrogen fuel cells. Rather, the depletion in oil reserves relative to increasing demand provides an important economic incentive: when oil prices peaked in 2008, Americans finally responded by switching to smaller cars, avoiding unnecessary trips, and carpooling. This analysis is perhaps one of the book’s greatest strengths: Owen doesn’t see much change coming from environmental evangelism or propaganda, especially when so much Eco-fashion selects precisely the wrong solution to a solvable problem. For Owen, people will live more sustainably not when they start to care more about nature, but when it becomes too expensive and inconvenient to do otherwise.

commonstruggle.org/greenmetro

107

Congestion charging works

streetsblog.org/2009/10/13/p … ing-works/

108

Conngestion charging makes sensein terms of freeing up space in the roads. Interestingly Taipei doesn’t have a lot of congestion due to its wide roads and excellent expressways and freeways,buses have fairly
Good bus lanes and roadway. I think pollution charges are the best way to go in Asia, along with parking fees. Drive a dirty car or scooter with large emissions, pay. Park your car on the pavements or road, pay.
I think it would be nice, and it has actually happened, whereby some lanes are converted to pavements and used as multip
Purpose cycleways and footpaths. That’s been very successful
In Taipei . Just don’t allow any scooters to drive in the pavement or park on the pavement. taipei city is called 天堂國 now that the gap between it and other areas is so large.

Of course in many areas of Taiwan pavements are non existent or don’t exist…much of the country’s environment is a shambles even in big cities like New Taipei City, Hsinchu, Taichung and Kaoshiung.

109

[quote=“headhonchoII”]Conngestion charging makes sensein terms of freeing up space in the roads. Interestingly Taipei doesn’t have a lot of congestion due to its wide roads and excellent expressways and freeways. I think pollution charges are the best way to go in Asia, along with parking fees. Drive a dirty car or scooter with large emissions, pay. Park your car on the pavements or road, pay.
I think it would be nice, and it has actually happened, whereby some lanes are converted to pavements and used as multip
Purpose cycleways and footpaths. That’s been very successful
In Taipei . Just don’t allow any scooters to drive in the pavement or park on the pavement. taipei city is called 天堂國 now that the gap between it and other areas is so large.

Of course in many areas of Taiwan pavements are non existent or don’t exist…much of the country’s environment is a shambles even in big cities like New Taipei City, Hsinchu, Taichung and Kaoshiung (Gaoxiong).[/quote]

Congestion charges work in making it inconvenient to drive. Drive your scooter through the city center, pay.

110

I agree, but a focus on pollution charges would achieve broadly the same thing but in a more concerted manner that deals with pollution that is generated outside of the city centre, such as in New Taipei City. More people live in New Taipei City than Taipei City and it would deal with pollution at a national level. The emissions tax should be used to fund public transport.

The best thing to do is build more MRT lines, it’s a slow process though.

111

[quote=“headhonchoII”]I agree, but a focus on pollution charges would achieve broadly the same thing but in a more concerted manner that deals with pollution that is generated outside of the city centre, such as in New Taipei City.

The best thing to do is build more MRT lines, it’s a slow process though.[/quote]

Agree. Any strategy that encourages people to do the right thing and care about others and the environment will fail. Any scheme that makes driving inconvenient and expensive will succeed. Make parking expensive and give more of the road space to pedestrians and cyclists. Make a lot of roads one way or ban driving down some alleys. When it reaches a tipping point of inconvenience or expense people will search for other options.

Look at the science park in Hsinchu, its a nightmare.The buses are a waste of time because there are so few, this because so few people use them. Charge people for driving into the science park but provide free park and ride.

112

[strike][/strike]some good points there chelsead, yes, cruising in the countryside on scooter with the nature smells, the warm moist air and sun on your body, wind rushing by, is magical I know. And with all the work being done promoting e-scooters on off-shore islands, govt subsidies and work already happening towards electric scooters, charging stations being built, green initiatives, etc…so calling for total ban on scooters nationwide is won’t be in the cards. We can rule that out safely. Banning in certain select areas would be up for discussion in society

e-scooters and hybrids, plus combo increase and better usage of MRT, bus, walking, bicycling,[strike]car/e-car i[/strike]s a forgone conclusion. We’re seeing the early stages now, and in 2-5 years we’ll see some noticeable changes hopefully.

Because of fund allocation, and current infrastructure differences, we’ll see Taipei taking the early lead, and Taizhong, Kaohsiung facing more challenges with the public transportation side of the equation (yes, and the heat, attitudes towards walking, convenience of scooters, cost of electric option, and so on).

Add on the necessary spatial and awareness training, road etiquette, details of charging areas, carrying of batteries, all that.

And details about how to make silent e-scooters safe. With the noise and air polluting being worked on, I’d like to also have the debate on the safety aspect. I’m interested in those details. With current situation, in urban areas, silent scooters will not be heard above the usual noise. Is govt and industry having this discussion? Maybe it’s a non-starter and people will adapt, I don’t know. But I’m leaning towards a more pessimistic view on that - some very nasty accidents. With hospitals already overloaded with scooter accidents patients (yes, I’ve spoken to doctors about this), we don’t need more bloodshed

113

Poorly maintained cars or ones running at high RPMs are louder as well. Cars are not immune to this either, a fact you’re not picking up.

[quote=“headhonchoII”]
Go to any intersection in the morning with 50 of them waiting, absorb the concentrated pollution of 50 engines and then enjoy the serene silence as they gun their engines together. During the morning migration one or two will always be taken out by the crocodiles but that’s the price to pay for looking for fresh grass lol.[/quote]
Welcome to my world. That’s exactly what I and others in the working class face in the 30 degree heat and the pouring rain while you sit there in your air-conditioned car with a roof to keep you dry. Now, why is that, do you think? Why do the working class endure it? It’s because we’re lazy and like the convenience of the sun and the rain, right? No, it’s because 1. there are not yet enough public transportation options to make that a viable option for a lot of us, 2. there are already too many cars on the roads and too little space on the streets, and some of us don’t want to add to the already crowded and problematic traffic situation here, and 3. cars are expensive to register, insure, drive, maintain, and park, putting a further burden on the working class.

[quote=“headhonchoII”]
Small electric cars could and very likely will offer a better alternative to both scooters and gasoline powered big cars. Electric scooters and bikes could handle 95% of rides in Taiwan but many like me just end up using buses and MRT. And trains or simply walking more![/quote]
I put this one in bold because you seem to respond better to that. Look at what you just wrote. You said “very likely will”. There was no waffling about anything on my part. By your very own words, you yourself know neither solar nor electric tech is at that point yet. You would not have said “very likely will” if you knew it was accessible now in an efficient and affordable enough manner. Used in conjunction with “could” instead of “can” also reinforces the point. You and I are most certainly, 100% on the same page on the solar and electric tech debate–as well as walking, cycling, and public transportation. The thing is, if anyone wants to see a meaningful introduction of electric vehicles of any sort in Taiwan in the next 3-5 years, it will require either reducing current electrical usage or else flicking the switch on that nuclear power plant. I’m all for anyone who wants to push affordable–to the working class–electric vehicles with enough power, range, and refilling ability to be a close substitute to current scooters, but you also have to address, in a reasonably well-thought-out manner, where the electricity is going to come from. And it can’t be with language like “could” and “very likely will”.

Your last paragraph is more or less okay. I’m glad you didn’t mention cars. You’re getting better.

Taiwan has a traffic problem. That applies equally to cars and scooters. Both must be reduced in a ratio similar to their current usage. If there is to be any acceptance nationwide, it must be fair. Car drivers and scooter riders will share equally in the sacrifices. The upper-middle class and the working class will be equally shifted to public transportation. If it’s fair, you’ll have less problems with implementation.

114

Taiwan has enough power generation cspbleity if we add all the under utikised power plants, most
Of them are coal powered though. I’m all for nuclear power especially for the no4 to be opened now the funds have been spent. However gas powered plants could fill the gap between coal and nuclear in a reactively cheap and less polluting manner. I don’t think scooter charging at night would add massive loads to current power demands, and the switch would be fairly gradual and dispersed. Many if not most scooter riders would abandon riding scooters if a better mire comfortable and safer alternative was available.

I’m a former scooter rider, I’d still ride one if I have the chance but not for commuting (in Taipei I understand the problem outside Taipei)and they are useless for families in terms of long distance or safety factors. scootersare not
good for the elderly of which Taiwan is getting more and more
Of each day! I could have died a couple
Of times from scooter accidents, I know the dangers, I was simply lucky. And it amazes me still to see young women riding scooters in heat and pollution, still the numbers of women in Taipei riding scooters must have dropped s fair bit by now. My first gf in Taiwan refused to drive a scooter and used to have to take taxis to
Most places when public transport was shit back in the old days.

Cities like Taichung and Kaoshiung really have to step up to the plate with public transport options, I understand why people there drive scooters due to economics and lack of alternatives. Sometimes I feel though that wealthy business owners and politicians are happy for their employees and the electorate to ride cheap polluting scooters because it keeps demands for wage increases down!

115

:loco: :loco: [quote=“BlownWideOpen”]some good points there chelsead, yes, cruising in the countryside on scooter with the nature smells, the warm moist air and sun on your body, wind rushing by, is magical I know. And with all the work being done promoting e-scooters on off-shore islands, govt subsidies and work already happening towards electric scooters, charging stations being built, green initiatives, etc…so calling for total ban on scooters nationwide is won’t be in the cards. We can rule that out safely. Banning in certain select areas would be up for discussion in society

e-scooters and hybrids, plus combo increase and better usage of MRT, bus, walking, car/e-car is a forgone conclusion. We’re seeing the early stages now, and in 2-5 years we’ll see some noticeable changes hopefully.

Because of fund allocation, and current infrastructure differences, we’ll see Taipei taking the early lead, and Taizhong, Kaohsiung facing more challenges with the public transportation side of the equation (yes, and the heat, attitudes towards walking, convenience of scooters, cost of electric option, and so on).

Add on the necessary spatial and awareness training, road etiquette, details of charging areas, carrying of batteries, all that.

And details about how to make silent e-scooters safe. With the noise and air polluting being worked on, I’d like to also have the debate on the safety aspect. I’m interested in those details. With current situation, in urban areas, silent scooters will not be heard above the usual noise. Is govt and industry having this discussion? Maybe it’s a non-starter and people will adapt, I don’t know. But I’m leaning towards a more pessimistic view on that - some very nasty accidents. With hospitals already overloaded with scooter accidents patients (yes, I’ve spoken to doctors about this), we don’t need more bloodshed[/quote]

Why do you keep writing cars :loco: :loco:

I told you the answer. Make driving cars and scooters inconvenient in cities and people who change their demands and find other ways.

116

Sorry about that Orange. No more cars then in this debate. It upsets some of the posters and distracts from the more interesting bits. Headhoncho, don’t mention cars again.

You’re absolutely right about congestion charges, stricter fines, making people pay, I agree completely

117

I think this could be a good alternative , it’s got the Eco credentials.
Ram a few million of them through the little streets of Taiwan.

usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/ca … -exterior/

Lighten up folks!

On a more serious note, I noticed a lot of the newer Japanese cars are very quiet as they are mostly hybrids, it seems almost all the high end models like Lexus are hybrids now. If they drive on the battery at slow speed within city limits it’s very helpful for local air pollution levels, not to mention noise levels. It’s a pity scooter tech hasn’t advanced so much.

This industry news from a couple of years back backs up my perception.

cens.com/cens/html/en/news/n … 39849.html

118

My solution to the scooters problem, by jesus80

I will have all the riders to get a red license plate motorcycle, so there wouldn’t be scooters anymore.

The end.

119

SlowRain, I do feel sorry for you poor working class people out there in Taizhong. The 1% ers in their air conditioned cars have it much easier. We need to advocate for better subsidies and govt support for the underprivileged members of society.

120

[quote=“jesus80”]My solution to the scooters problem, by jesus80

I will have all the riders to get a red license plate motorcycle, so there wouldn’t be scooters anymore.

The end.[/quote]

Oh dear