Reid is right

[Groo]

Mofanggongren - I’m not criticizing Lincoln, in fact I have a great deal of respect for Lincoln as a man who put America in the right direction. He had to do some remarkable things and I respect him for sticking with his morals no matter what. But I do not look at history as something perfect and always pretty and I don’t try to white-wash it to match my argument. You hold Lincoln up as an ideal and I say, OK. But realize that if Bush started doing things that Lincoln did, people would not have the stomach for it now days.

I’ll attempt to rebut the history points that you have taken great liberties with below.

[quote=“mofangongren”][quote=“Groo”][quote=“mofangongren”]Having just finished reading Doris Kearns Goodwin’s excellent “Team of Rivals” about President Lincoln’s cabinet, I figure that if the Republicans cared so much about winning this war, they would have taken a few hints from a successful leader: …
[/quote]

Is President Lincoln the ideal war leader? Then President Bush should…

1. Arrest and or exile political opposition leaders.[/quote]

Did Lincoln support this? I don’t think so. The Confederates all took off from the House and Senate before the commencement of hostilities. There was an isolated case of an Ohio politician who was briefly arrested in the midst of trying to rouse large crowds into rebellion – mindful of the sensitivies, when Lincoln heard about the arrest he had the politician then released to go to the Confederacy if that was what he truly wanted. The politician took it, went up to Canada where he continued his rebel-supporting activities, and then before the end of the war re-entered the Union in time for the 1864 elections.
[/quote]

Yes, I’m afraid Lincoln did arrest without trial and exile the political leader from Ohio. He was not released but forced marched out of the country. But along with the Ohio Senator, Lincoln had hundreds of Copperheads arrested.

@mofangongren

@Groo

3. Suspend the writ of habeas corpus (government can arrest people without trial).

This was controversial but limited geographically to Maryland (a then-slave-state that surrounded Washington D.C.) and parts of southern Indiana where there had been riots and militia kookiness, but then at the start of the war (even from the observations of Brits who were watching the situation), there was a serious problem with infiltration of the Union with southern sympathizers. I do not think the post-9/11 era of unity and nationwide mourning really had a parallel with the situation facing Lincoln in which the very nature of the war centered on a divided America. Lincoln did suspend habeus corpus in some limited circumstances; Jeff Davis did it throughout the Confderacy.

Where did you read it was limited? Lincoln suspended habeas corpus throughout the nation.

@mofangongren

@Groo

4. Order generals to disarm and depopulate areas for control.

How so? In Iraq, perhaps disarmament from the start would have been a good idea. But instead, we had a bunch of wing-nut ideologues spouting that what’s good for the NRA in the U.S. should be good for the Iraqis.

ouch.

@mofangongren

Regarding depopulation, we’d need to know more of what you’re suggesting here about Lincoln. … So, how would you have done it differently? How would you have denied the South the material support necessary to continue the fight? How would you have dealt with pro-South families supporting the soldiers?..

I’m not suggesting anything. I’m tellin it like it was. It’s seems you agree it happened.

Here’s a quote with a funny little story at the end about Truman’s southern mom.

The Anglo-Saxon population of the whole western tier of counties in Missouri were deported from their homes by General Ewing’s General Order Number 11, which depopulated the region by forcibly evacuating the women and children on the shortest of notice, along with burning their houses and stealing their property. Among those experiencing this deportation and expropria tion was the mother of later President Harry S. Truman. The memories of the sufferings she and her family had endured while she was a small child stayed with Mrs. Truman throughout her life. On one occasion the aspiring young politician told his mother that he had been invited to dinner at the house of a prominent family in Kansas City. His mother admonished him to turn the silver over and check the hallmark because, “It’s probably ours.” On another occasion, Truman showed his mother his new National Guard uniform only to be ordered out of the house because the pants were blue.

@mofangongren

… a prelude to oh-so-many future cigarette fires in mobile homes over the ensuing century.

ouch.

@mofangongren

@Groo

5. Begin recruitment of foreign mercenaries.

Not sure what you’re talking about here. … Bush has already done plenty of that with the private contracting “security” firms running about Iraq these past several years.

Hmmm. Is Bush tricking people into going to Iraq? Here are some details about foreign recruitment efforts during the Civil War. [quote]
Thus the armies of the North were swelled with hundreds of thousands of mercenary soldiers from Europe, lured to the United States by a circular known as “the notorious Number 19” in the South. This circular from William H. Seward offered inducement in the form of pay and bounties to enlist in the service of the North, which already enjoyed an advantage in numbers of four times the White population of the South. The circular was evasive about service in the Army. Consul General John Bigelow in Paris organized a network of immigration agencies across Europe offering free land under the Homestead Act of 1862. After the war Bigelow stated that the tremendous success of recruiting of these foreign mercenaries accounted for the “mysterious repletion of our army during the four years of war.”

Large numbers of Irish and German mercenaries arrived to assist in the suppression of the South. According to the New York Herald, almost 150,000 immigrants were estimated to have joined the army early in the war. Admiral Porter estimated that a majority of the eighty thousand seamen were aliens. Ultimately, it is estimated that between 400,000 and 500,000 mercenary troops were enrolled in the Northem army to subjugate the South.
[/quote]

[quote=“mofangongren”]

@Groo

6. Issue an executive order shutting down newspapers critical of the war.

Did he? There were plenty of newspapers “critical of the war” and critical of Lincoln and his cabinet that survived without missing a single deadline … Now, if there were newspapers shut down by executive order, was it that they were just “critical of the war” or were they actively supporting the Confederacy? Are we talking about newspapers in some of the border slave states that stayed in the Union (Kentucky, Maryland, Missouri, etc.?). Give us some details so we can size up what Lincoln was shutting down.[/quote]

They were just critical of the war. And he shut down up to 300 of them and arrested hundreds of paper editors without warrants.

[mofangongren]

@Groo

Yes, I’m afraid Lincoln did arrest without trial and exile the political leader from Ohio. He was not released but forced marched out of the country. But along with the Ohio Senator, Lincoln had hundreds of Copperheads arrested.

Vallandingham was sent down to the Confederacy, but of course he didn’t stay put and, just as I indicated, made his way back up to Canada to try to spread his treasonous poison about the Union. Vallandingham’s situation is covered in the Goodwin book, and it seems clear from her research Lincoln was not the one pushing for it.

@Groo

Where did you read it was limited? Lincoln suspended habeas corpus throughout the nation.

I’ve read some conflicting information on this and will research further. However, I went to this link and am a bit wary of a site that treats Roger Taney with such respect. Taney, as you may recall was the Sup. Ct. justice who essentially didn’t think blacks were human.

[quote=“Groo”][quote=“mofangongren”]

@Groo

4. Order generals to disarm and depopulate areas for control.

How so? In Iraq, perhaps disarmament from the start would have been a good idea. But instead, we had a bunch of wing-nut ideologues spouting that what’s good for the NRA in the U.S. should be good for the Iraqis.
[/quote]

ouch.[/quote]

I’m a gun owner (back stateside), and I have no problem with guns. However, the policies pursued in Iraq were nuts.

@Groo

[quote=“mofangongren”]Regarding depopulation, we’d need to know more of what you’re suggesting here about Lincoln. … So, how would you have done it differently? How would you have denied the South the material support necessary to continue the fight? How would you have dealt with pro-South families supporting the soldiers?..

I’m not suggesting anything. I’m tellin it like it was. It’s seems you agree it happened.[/quote]

But “depopulation” can be used as a loaded term. It’s the same thing that is used to refer to extermination schemes, akin to “ethnic cleansing” in the shallow-grave sense of the term. In actuality, Confederacy-loving, slave-whuppin, treasonous scumbags were allowed to take their hoop skirts back down to the inbred thugs who married them.

[quote=“Groo”][quote=“mofangongren”]

@Groo

5. Begin recruitment of foreign mercenaries.

Not sure what you’re talking about here. … Bush has already done plenty of that with the private contracting “security” firms running about Iraq these past several years.[/quote]

Hmmm. Is Bush tricking people into going to Iraq?[/quote]

Is this about methods of recruitment or the fact of recruitment? Blackwater is one of several “security contractors” who serve as private soldiers in Iraq. Their people collect hefty fees for working there in a private capacity.

[quote=“Groo”]Here are some details about foreign recruitment efforts during the Civil War. [quote]
Thus the armies of the North were swelled with hundreds of thousands of mercenary soldiers from Europe, lured to the United States by a circular known as “the notorious Number 19” in the South. This circular from William H. Seward offered inducement in the form of pay and bounties to enlist in the service of the North, which already enjoyed an advantage in numbers of four times the White population of the South.[/quote]

We were an immigrant nation in those days, filled with people who came for a bunch of reasons. We have more Irish-Americans than there are Irish in Ireland, so go figure.

@Groo

The circular was evasive about service in the Army.

Oh boo-hoo! That’s never happened before or since, right?

@Groo

Consul General John Bigelow in Paris organized a network of immigration agencies across Europe offering free land under the Homestead Act of 1862. After the war Bigelow stated that the tremendous success of recruiting of these foreign mercenaries accounted for the “mysterious repletion of our army during the four years of war.”

So were we recruiting immigrants or soldiers? Seems like the line was blurred.

@Groo

They were just critical of the war. And he shut down up to 300 of them and arrested hundreds of paper editors without warrants.[/quote]

Shut down up to 300 of them temporarily. For one day or two? As to the Dilorenzo piece, it’s written by a guy with a clear bone to pick with even the notion of fighting to save the Union, so it’s a bit hard to take seriously.