Richardm:
Count on you to make a comment that is irrelevant and in poor taste. I am fully willing to consider this subject.
We are discussing reparations and affirmative action. I want to find out more about how namahottie feels about this issue. I may yet be swayed on this issue but I want to know more. Anyone with anything intelligent to say is most welcome but I for one am not going to be intimidated into not having an opinion on this because I am not black.
I’ll try to be relevant. I think it’s too late for reparations, but affirmative action is still needed. Nobody said it’s perfect.
Thanks Richardm:
But now why then is it too late for reparations? Why is affirmative action still needed? Is there a way that affirmative-action programs can be made better?
Affirmative action for people who already have money? WTF.
I think that if it wasn’t for affirmative action, among other things, I would be working in the US right now. I have a MA in Mathematics. In the old days you could apply for a job and the employer would say, “This guy has a math degree. He must be smart. Let’s hire him.”
But nowadays they would be at risk of being sued if someone could prove that they had credentials to perform the advertised job. Nowadays companies have personnel departments who’s main task is to make sure the company doesn’t get sued.
I understand the reason why it is the way it is. I don’t like it, but I can’t think of a better way to promote equality. I hope we can make it better, but I don’t think we should throw the system out and declare ourselves racially cured.
Well, we are not all equal. There are plenty of folks smarter, taller, better looking, more healthy, wealthier, wittier and wiser than I.
So, let’s just agree that we are talking about equality of opportunity.
And even that is difficult to achieve in the total absence of racism.
In any event, I think the best way to promote equality of opportunity is to raise the standards of expectation on everyone. Virtually everyone responds positively to raised expectations, and when such expectations are met or approached, our opportunities are increased.
It ain’t perfect… but, its much better than dumbing down.
You don’t end racism by perpetuating it in another form. An affirmative action plan based on income and geared towrds helping young people get an education would help whoever was in fact disadvantaged no matter whether they were black, white or green. NOTHING should be based on race.
Yes, I meant equal opportunity. You can’t convince me that it would happen without an affirmative action law.
In a perfect world. Certain people have been disenfranchised. And the theory is that a correction is needed. I believe it is. It’s reverse discrimination and it’s not ideal, but we don’t live in an ideal world. do we?
Why would it be rational to discriminate against blacks? Well, as Dinesh D’Souza pointed out awhile back, African-immigrant cabbies in DC quickly learn not to pick up young black males of a certain description (even though DC has declared this avoidance illegal).
As a generalization, various test scores show blacks to be less intelligent and more violent than either whites or Asians. This meshes pretty much with our everyday experiences, acknowledged or not. While of course there are exceptions, the cost of identifying these must be weighed against the benefits (to me and mine, not to them).
On the affirmative action issue, an interesting side-effect is that only those “disadvantaged” groups with a certain amount of political clout, can manage to get included. West Virginia has tended to also recognize “people of Appalachian heritage” or somesuch, but hillbillies who want to go to Berkeley will discover that as far as the UC system is concerned, they’re the wrong kind of disadvantaged group.
On that note, is anybody else aware that many American whites are the descendents of slaves?
[quote=“Screaming Jesus”]
As a generalization, various test scores show blacks to be less intelligent and more violent than either whites or Asians. This meshes pretty much with our everyday experiences, acknowledged or not. While of course there are exceptions, the cost of identifying these must be weighed against the benefits (to me and mine, not to them).
[/quote]Please oh PLEASE show me this information so I can turn in my MENSA membership…
I would say rather that they perform poorer on standardized test scores. This is not a sign of intelligence but one of upbringing or schooling. Students from ANY underprivileged background, whether white, latin, black or asian usually do poorer on tests and have more violent tendencies.
I don’t support affirmative action in its current form because I believe that the aid is being applied too late. Advantages should not be granted in the Universities or Jobs because that just brings down the level of the students-employees as a whole. I think that more effort should be put into underprivilaged schools to better the chances of possible problem children early…and then head off the problem of unfair treatment to anyone later. Of course, the US would have to give teachers some real power (as opposed to constantly siding with the parents in any dispute).
My mother works in an underprivilaged school and complains about this last point endlessly. The moment you try to do something strict, the administration comes down on you and complains that Student X is receiving unfair treatment. The result: Student X just keeps moving through the school system, even when he or she is obviously not up to what lies ahead.
Note: This is a high school…I think that true aid should be given much younger than that. Most good habits start in childhood. So do bad ones. Aid should be focused there.
Of course, better teachers are needed too…which means teachers should get raises in salary and be subject to more scrutiny upon employment until they prove they can handle the job.
In short, the whole damned system sucks…but affirmative action isn’t the patch it used to be to heal the problems of underrepresentation in schools and workplaces.
[quote=“tomtom taiwan”]Of course, better teachers are needed too…which means teachers should get raises in salary and be subject to more scrutiny upon employment until they prove they can handle the job.
.[/quote]
And what defines a good teacher. Currently in the CPS(chicago public schools) affirmative action is leading the way for placing Latino candidates in higher level adminstration positions based on the demographics of the school.
I think I probably agree with SJ more than disagree. One thing I disagree with is his limited view on the definition of intelligence. I tend to follow Howard Gardner’s Multiple Intelligence school of thought. The tests SJ are referring to test a very narrow range of intelligence (IMO).
I’m willing to bet that if someone could conduct thee study (of studies). We’d find that genetics are partially the reason Blacks are more violent and prone to lower test scores. I think we’d also find that we (Blacks) generally have bigger dicks, jump higher, run faster, hit harder and are the most outstanding lovers of any race. We’d probably also find that genetics is the reason Whites generally can’t dance (and have small dicks of course).
I don’t know what this has to do with reparations though. It looks like the people going for reparations want to put the money back into the community and not into pockets (or so one would hope). Seems like that would benefit everybody.
True again. I’m sure “they” feel the same way (I’m sure some Whites are cool, but “The Man” must be stopped! And reparations is the way)
I think Screaming Jesus is way out of line on this one. There may be more violence among the black population in the United States but what about in other countries? The States is such a basket case in so many ways it hardly serves as a representative example.
I agree with the idea of reparations for crimes committed during living memory. Reparations for comfort women, Japanese-American/Canadians interned, Jews/Gypsies/homosexuals suffering in death camps - many of those people are still alive, or have children who are still alive, and thus with WWII still within only 3 generations’ memory, reparations make sense.
If you go back to crimes committed more than a 100 years ago, it gets more problematic. Some of my ancestors were ethnically cleansed from modern-day Nova Scotia by the British several hundred years ago. Clearly a great crime, but does the U.K. owe reparations to descendants of Acadians, something that happened so long ago? Everyone who suffered from it has long since died.
And if you start looking at it from a global instead of a narrowly parochial African-American perspective, you’ll start to notice just how many victims there have been out there. Do I need to point out the etymology of the term “Slav”? Does Russia owe reparations to all of Eastern Europe? Many white people are the descendants of slaves - they just called them serfs over in Europe. Indentured servants in America (President Andrew Johnson was a runaway white slave.) My grandparents were sharecroppers who literally picked cotton. Am I owed reparations by capitalism because generations of my family suffered from abject poverty? One underlining assumption in some of the posters in this thread, particularly Richard M., is that white males cannot possibly be underprivileged in North America today. To be white and male is to be part of a secret good old boys’ club. Sadly, that is not true for millions of poor working white males, who hold practically no power and precious little privilege - by no means are the blue collar guys digging ditches and frying pancakes members of the privileged elite, even if their skin is white.
And there are greater crimes committed in America than slavery. I still haven’t made my mind up whether or not reparations should be made to the descendants of Native American tribes that suffered from generations of slow genocide, for hundreds of years since Columbus landed. The case for those reparations seems stronger than the case for African-American reparations for slavery, IMHO. So that should be taken care of before anyone even begins to talk about reparations for slavery. And another thing is…well, look at what has happened to Native American tribes who have received cash settlements and land grants from the government. Has their standard of living improved and misery been alleviated to any great degree because of it? The rates of poverty, alcoholism, and welfare dependency are still massive on reservations and in Native American groups as a whole. So even if we could agree that blacks deserved reparations, I’m still not sure it would be a good idea. Throwing money at disadvantaged groups is too often more destructive than constructive.
Personally I think that Affirmative Action has it backwards. It’s too little too late. Affirmative Action is given to people when they are in college or out in the work force, when they are already practically adults. If you truly want to give black kids a leg up, I would suggest increasing funding and hiring better teachers for schools in underprivileged communities. Give the kids “affirmative action” at age 7 instead of age 21, it will be more effective that way - the earlier you start educating children in the 3 R’s, the more of a Head Start they have in life. Scrap AA, increase funding for programs like Head Start - it’s going to take a long time to see the effects, but such a program is going to be more effective in the long run than the temporary band-aid of AA. AA may be a quick, dirty fix for a handful of underprivileged individuals, but it does not address the more serious underlying structural problems in our society.
This is nonsense, IMO. What tests show this?
Not my everyday experiences. I think we’ve all shown a pretty equal capacity for intelligence, stupidity, compassion and cruelty.
Could you identify these costs and benefits?
There is probably some truth to this. However, this in no way supports your statements above.
You’re all over the place here. What has this to do with your statements/assertions above?
That’s not why he is wrong, IMO. Many places in Africa are violent. Then again, so are many places in the sub-continent… and East Asia, and the middle east… and Europe and the Americas… so… what does that prove?
Unfortunately, some people believe each race is more or less of something or other as a condition and result of race. Yes, I’m aware that there have been studies and there have been tests and there are results there seems to be a measured difference in the intelligence of the races… but, that difference is small and there are many reasons for the same… race is not one of them.
If there is violence committed among or by blacks in the US or Africa or anywhere else it is not because the people are black. If it were, what do we make of MLK and the people who followed him? There are many other reasons for any particular condition. Or, should we say that when whites act violently it is because they are white? Or, that when Asians act violently it is due to the fact that they are Asian? No, we don’t say that because such a notion is ridiculous.
When we compare the scores of whites who do well in school with other whites who do not do well in school, we look at the differences in their socio-economic backgrounds for explanations. No doubt some Asians score better than other Asians. If race was the deciding factor, I would expect all Asians to score better than all whites who would score better than all blacks. That simply isn’t the case. We logically look for differences in socio-economic and cultural backgrounds and the opportunities that come or lack because of the same when comparing differences within a race. Why would we not do the same when comparing differences among the races?
Blacks rob stores and whites kill people and eat them. Both equally as dangerous. 