First get rid of all the strawmen, then actually rip away at the conclusions that only you could make and end up with? what? what is your point? do you have one?
I cannot help it but I have to do this. Do you believe in more troops = more security for the Iraqi people? IF so, how about sending more Canadians? haha THAT would really help and would probably make all the difference.
Oh, I don’t know, fred, aren’t you the one who claimed that Rummy was the best ever Sec. Def? If so, why is the Pentagon now trying to turn tail and run from the legacy of his considerable errors?
Puzzle out my point from these questions:
Was a strictly Pentagon-run game plan the best idea? If not,
Was it appropriate to freeze out Peacenik Powell and the State Dept? If not,
Are there lessons in that regarding the effectiveness of unilateral actions of this type and scale? Regardless of that answer,
Does this mess provide any lessons for the future?
Do I believe that more troops now would provide more security? :s
Would more throw pillows save Humpty Dumpty after he’s already fallen? :homer:
Might they have saved him before he fell? :eh:
Might it have been a good idea not to knock him off the wall to begin with? 
And now? What’s John McCain say, it’d be nice if there were more troops to send, but there aren’t, so it’s not double-down: it’s all in. You’re all in, and there’s no walking away from it because the consequences of failure are so great. But, the current plan isn’t going to work. Withdrawing isn’t going to work. And there are no more troops to send… not that they would help anyways. So, the plan seems to be prayer.
What’s today’s view from the right when it comes to military strategies that rely on prayer?
Want to resurrect this thread, eh?.. 
He certainly was a very good one in my book.
Is that what is happening here? I am sorry, can you walk me through the steps about how you arrived at this conclusion based on this article?
Puzzle is right…
For an invasion, you better fucking believe it. Remember our efforts in Bosnia and Kosovo? Wanna discuss why we didn’t get NATO involved in the invasion of Afghanistan?
Well, you can stop there since I already disagreed with the first part, but let me see where this “puzzle” goes…
haha. You mean like how the CIA was frozen out of this? I disagree categorically that either the State or Powell were frozen out. And when did Powell become a Peacenik. Don’t tell him that. I imagine that he would have a hard time being in the same room with all of these fools.
Oh smell what you are shoveling. Do you have any idea how turf wars between agencies work? Have you ever had a job where there has been more than one department involved in running or following or cooperating on a specific plan of action?
Better stick to teaching kindergarten? Yes? Okay, then…
I disagree that there was anything “unilateral” about this. You can believe that all you want but… er… well, then, back to puzzles aren’t we?
Regardless? haha Indeed. Now, I am beginning to understand your “puzzle.”
Only the SAME one for me that it has always been that the West no longer has the willingness or even capability to execute strategy. The real issue has been whether America has the patience for this. In war, the deaths of 3,000 troops is nothing if not historically miraculous. The fact that this is front-page news and THAT news is that it is a disaster is having an effect, and this is the real issue and has been since we let the Vietnamese victory slip through our hands in the orgy of self-defeating narcissism that was the 60s. Oh and let me head off the 3,000 deaths is not nothing to the families, blah blah blah. I am trying to make a comparison of troop deaths between various conflicts. THAT involves numbers NOT values.
Yes, that is the question since I am not sure that any of you has any idea of what to do. You live to protest and wax morally outraged. Boring. Self-absorbed. IF you have the luxury of knowing that your posturing will not actually come at a personal cost.
Jesus Titty Fucking Christ. Are you joking?
If a Mime is killed in a forest, does anyone care?
Yes, yes yes, I see now Jaboney. The stability of the Saddam era and its millions dead was something worth preserving. Yes, yes yes, I see that clearly now. Thanks for explaining this puzzle, this enigma, this conundrum. Ah. Indeed. Right.
So you seem to be agreeing with McCain here? As I recall Rumsfeld was widely mocked for his statement that you go to war with the army that you have. Seems that you find something in his remarks after all?
Yes, we are all in so to speak and the consequences of failure are too great. Let me make two points. IF that is the case and IF the consequences of failure are too great, why not join the party and try to help? Oh but you didn’t start this mess right? and it is therefore not your responsibility or perhaps if Clinton or Gore had been president such a thing would have been possible but with Bush, terribly sorry don’t you know and all that. Second, does Canada or does any other nation have anything to send? relevant? that would not require extra US forces to protect? haha You have nothing. Most other nations in the West have nothing. Sending or not sending is irrelevant but you do have lots of opinions mostly negative ones about the only nation that has ever tried to solve these problems in whatever imperfect ways it can but you who have not even tried are above that. Reminds me of the local failure sitting around mouthing off about the failed action plans and strategies of every political leader, sports figures, etc.
Perhaps not. Should we NOT try (the Canadian way?)
As I have said all along. We are not going to withdraw not for 60 years. Maybe more.
Yup.
[quote]
not that they would help anyways[/quote].
Not in an insurgency so I don’t mind the surge if Bush thinks it is needed, but what we need is to stop bellyaching about what has not been such a bad effort. What is needed is patience and lots of long-term commitment. I think that Rumsfeld was far wiser than you give him credit for. He foresaw that as usual the American people would weaken and so would their resolve and he fully understood that the rest of the world was worthless so he went to war with the army that he had, one that did not require a draft and given those variables one that will not actually stir the masses to rise up in mass protests. So, we can and will stay for a very long time and even the Democrats will support us on that. Notice the quiet quiescent Congress that I foretold. NOTHING has changed at least not in the Senate. In fact, from a conservative rather than Republican point of view we are now even stronger in the Senate. Not so for the House. I can deal with it.
I have always been very religious and I certainly see no reason not to pray. Such a comfort in hard times. In fact, I am praying right now. Praying that some day you will actually have the ability to make sense. God works in mysterious ways. Who knows but that some day you will have an epiphany and realize that posturing about morals does not a moral posture make unless it is one that makes one resemble a posterior.
We have a good strategy in place. I will pray that the American people find new resolve to last this out. Insurgencies and we are now very much in the middle of one take at least nine to 12 years to fight out. We must be there for the long haul. In the meantime, I see no reason why we cannot stoke the fires of instability to reward and repay our little friends in the region. Two to tango and all that.
haha. You mean like how the CIA was frozen out of this? I disagree categorically that either the State or Powell were frozen out. And when did Powell become a Peacenik. Don’t tell him that. I imagine that he would have a hard time being in the same room with all of these fools.[/quote] See, I didn’t think he was, but there was all that crap flying around about that ‘Flower child in the State Dept’, so I was confused.
[quote=“fred smith”]Oh smell what you are shoveling. Do you have any idea how turf wars between agencies work? Have you ever had a job where there has been more than one department involved in running or following or cooperating on a specific plan of action?[/quote] Actually, yes. But I’ve never actually been a kindergarten teacher.
[quote=“fred smith”]IF you have the luxury of knowing that your posturing will not actually come at a personal cost.[/quote]Now that’s a silly charge that I’ve not liked seeing thrown at you, and here you are throwing it at me.
Jesus Titty Fucking Christ. Are you joking?[/quote]That’s a new one.
[quote=“fred smith”]If a Mime is killed in a forest, does anyone care?[/quote]If a Mime is killed anywhere, does anyone care?
I have always been very religious and I certainly see no reason not to pray. [/quote]Me too. But I’ve never bet lives on prayer.
[quote=“fred smith”]Who knows but that some day you will have an epiphany and realize that posturing about morals does not a moral posture make unless it is one that makes one resemble a posterior.[/quote]Speaking of asses… er, I’ll have that joke for Palm Sunday.
That’s an opinion piece by one guy who is commenting on the general issue of counterinsurgency, not the reality of Bushian cabinetry. Powell was sidelined mighty fast.
Prove it
???
Did you swallow your tongue fred? 
[/quote]
I think he just put his mouth where [something] was…
Is that right, Fred? Did you sign up to serve?[/quote]
Fred served his country proudly in the War of 1812. I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect him to re-enlist for every single war. Besides, he accidentally spilt cider in his powder horn and now he can’t make the musket go boom 
[quote]BAGHDAD (AP) — U.S.-backed Iraqi forces stormed the Health Ministry and arrested the No. 2 official Thursday, accusing him of diverting millions of dollars to the biggest Shiite militia and allowing death squads use of ambulances and government hospitals to carry out kidnappings and killings.
Shiite politicians allied with anti-American cleric Muqtada al-Sadr denounced the arrest of Deputy Health Minister Hakim al-Zamili as a violation of Iraqi sovereignty and demanded that the prime minister intervene to win his release.
But Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki and his senior advisers remained silent. Al-Maliki, a Shiite, is under strong U.S. pressure to crack down on Shiite militias and has pledged not to interfere in the security operation to rid Baghdad’s streets of gunmen from both Islamic sects.[/quote]
usatoday.com/news/world/iraq … htm?csp=34
Good for them. How hard can it be to track millions of dollars? Send 20,000 accountants to Iraq.
“Brother, can ya spare 10,000,000 Dinars?”
I’d like to let that little peckerhead al-Sadr hold about 165 grains in the middle of his forehead. Sure would clean up a lot of problems.
How many times has “the #2 al’Qaeda operative in Iraq” been killed? Has it helped?
The way assassinating his grandfather, father and two older brothers solved the problem? Just what the Shia need; another martyr.
I dunno, ask the CPA- they managed to lose track of $8 billion.
[quote=“MikeN”][quote=“jdsmith”]
Good for them. How hard can it be to track millions of dollars? Send 20,000 accountants to Iraq.
[/quote]
I dunno, ask the CPA- they managed to lose track of $8 billion.[/quote]
Thats right and heads will roll. Good for them.
You and Jaboney keep at it. Now remember, if your prayers are answered, it is a sign of God’s benevolence. If your prayers are not answered, that’s OK too, because it is all part of God’s glorious plan which you cannot possibly comprehend. You can’t lose!
How many times has “the #2 al’Qaeda operative in Iraq” been killed? Has it helped?[/quote]
Well we have stopped getting those silly audiotapes.
[quote=“jdsmith”][quote=“Jaboney”]
How many times has “the #2 al’Qaeda operative in Iraq” been killed? Has it helped?[/quote]
Well we have stopped getting those silly audiotapes.[/quote]
Yeah those CIA homemade ones they tell us are the Bogeyman Osama (so it must be).
Don’t worry they’ll make some more when they need to.
Regarding the debacle in Iraq:
edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast … index.html
[b]
U.S. military: Iraqi lawmaker is U.S. Embassy bomber
BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) – A man sentenced to death in Kuwait for the 1983 bombings of the U.S. and French embassies now sits in Iraq’s parliament as a member of Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki’s ruling coalition, according to U.S. military intelligence.
Jamal Jafaar Mohammed’s seat in parliament gives him immunity from prosecution. Washington says he supports Shiite insurgents and acts as an Iranian agent in Iraq.
U.S. military intelligence in Iraq has approached al-Maliki’s government with the allegations against Jamal Jafaar Mohammed, who it says assists Iranian special forces in Iraq as “a conduit for weapons and political influence.”
[/b]
Well surprise surprise, a member of the Prime Minister’s Islamic Da’wa party -which was headquartered in Tehran from 1980 to 2003- is colloborated with old friends?
I’m still waiting for someone to remind me why I want American troops championing a Shi’a Iraqi government with strong ties to Iran. Oh wait that’s right, I don’t.
An update on Iraq Reconstruction Report Focusing on Construction & Sustainment issued 02.07.07