Richard Hartzell on the (Soap) Box

Politics Taiwan Politics
1

When I was in the gym a little earlier today, the TV was tuned to a live panel discussion on the status of Taiwan’s territorial sovereignty, and there was Richard Hartzell (as I assume it was: the name displayed on the screen was 何瑞元) playing an active part in arguing his unique interpretation thereof.

I couldn’t follow much of what they were saying because it was very noisy in the gym and there weren’t any Chinese subtitles, but it did appear that Richard was arguing his position quite forcefully, fluently and effectively. Kudos to you, RH!

But I was rather disgusted with the pig-faced fellow who insisted on speaking Taiwanese all the time (while everyone else was speaking Mandarin). It seemed almost as if he was deliberately trying to exclude the foreigner. Such rudeness is really inexcusable! How would he have felt if he had been invited to a panel discussion in the US and, knowing that he spoke English well but did not understand or had only a smattering of Spanish, one of the panelists insisted on speaking in Spanish whle everyone else was using English. Such a situation is quite unimaginable. I suppose the pig-mannered fellow must have been one of that worst kind of Hoklo chauvinist as is sometimes alluded to by others on this forum.

2

Well … according to what I have been hearing today, the reaction to our two-hour interview on CTS (Sunday morning, March 26th, 10:00 to 12:00) has been quite good.

We are offering the Taiwanese people the THIRD OPTION.

Hence, we fully believe that everyone should be aware that these are the choices, (one of which should be implemented at an early date) –
(1) Taiwan independence
(2) Unification with the PRC
(3) Recognition under international law and US Constitutional law as an overseas territory of the USA (under United States Military Government)

Here in Taipei, we are having a Press Conference on the afternoon of March 27th, and a Rally/Demonstration on the morning of March 29th. Details are here – taiwanadvice.com/pressconference.htm

3

(1) Taiwan independence = IMPOSSIBLE at current moment in time
(2) Unification with China = ditto
(3) Recognition under international law and US Constitutional law
as an overseas territory of the USA (under United States Military Government) = Impossible on Planet Earth

but good for you for trying!

4

How come the Status Quo option is not available?

5

'cause that’s for cowards and wimps! :laughing:

6

[quote=“Omniloquacious”]When I was in the gym a little earlier today, the TV was tuned to a live panel discussion on the status of Taiwan’s territorial sovereignty, and there was Richard Hartzell (as I assume it was: the name displayed on the screen was 何瑞元) playing an active part in arguing his unique interpretation thereof.

I couldn’t follow much of what they were saying because it was very noisy in the gym and there weren’t any Chinese subtitles, but it did appear that Richard was arguing his position quite forcefully, fluently and effectively. Kudos to you, RH!

But I was rather disgusted with the pig-faced fellow who insisted on speaking Taiwanese all the time (while everyone else was speaking Mandarin). It seemed almost as if he was deliberately trying to exclude the foreigner. Such rudeness is really inexcusable! How would he have felt if he had been invited to a panel discussion in the US and, knowing that he spoke English well but did not understand or had only a smattering of Spanish, one of the panelists insisted on speaking in Spanish whle everyone else was using English. Such a situation is quite unimaginable. I suppose the pig-mannered fellow must have been one of that worst kind of Hoklo chauvinist as is sometimes alluded to by others on this forum.[/quote]

can you really fault someone for taking their native language seriously, particularly in a discussion of this nature.

the speaker in question would probably change your analogy to one where your english speaking country had been overrun by first french then spanish speakers and english had been supressed for one hundred years. if one insists on using their native tongue in a political discussion in such a context i disagree strongly you can call him rude–even if you disagree with his outlook, in lieu of evidence to the contrary you have to give him credit for the honesty of his viewpoint.

actually i might expect that someone treading this ground would have done a bit of preparation in this regard.

7

Recognition under international law and US Constitutional law that Taiwan is an overseas territory of the USA (under United States Military Government), and that the “Republic of China” is a subordinate occupying power (beginning October 25, 1945) and a government in exile (beginning mid December 1949) is the status quo.

8

Recognition under international law and US Constitutional law that Taiwan is an overseas territory of the USA (under United States Military Government), and that the “Republic of China” is a subordinate occupying power (beginning October 25, 1945) and a government in exile (beginning mid December 1949) is the status quo.[/quote]

if no one recognizes this to be the case, how can it be the status quo? it might be the status quo under one legalistic interpretation of the case, but it is not the status quo under any practical or realistic interpretation.

9

Recognition under international law and US Constitutional law that Taiwan is an overseas territory of the USA (under United States Military Government), and that the “Republic of China” is a subordinate occupying power (beginning October 25, 1945) and a government in exile (beginning mid December 1949) is the status quo.[/quote]

Case closed.

Regarding the guy talking Taiwanese the whole time - it all depends on intention, does it not?

10

[quote] Hence, we fully believe that everyone should be aware that these are the choices, (one of which should be implemented at an early date) –
(1) Taiwan independence
(2) Unification with the PRC
(3) Recognition under international law and US Constitutional law as an overseas territory of the USA (under United States Military Government)
[/quote]

  1. Northern Expedition Part II - The Long Awaited Sequel :sunglasses:
11

Status Quo is just another way of Putting it Off.

Kind of like what Bill Clinton did when he heard reports that Al Qaeda was going to attack one of our embassies.

The result, everyone knows.

RH, maybe you should consider pulling off a centrist ‘Kadima Party’. It seems like what the people of Taiwan want.

12

The people of Taiwan want someone to help them grow. But the only growing is happening across the straits.

As I’m quite fond of taxi cab wisdom, I relay another story from the latest taxi cab rant. Cabbie sees on TV a program showing all that Beijing is doing for the Olympics in 2008. He sees how they’re tearing down the old and putting up totally modern, new infrastructure, apartments for people etc. He ends his rant with how China and the rest of the world is flying through the air whereas Taiwan is flying in the ground. Ouch… I felt like buying the guy a beer.

13

[quote=“Tempo Gain”][quote=“Omniloquacious”]When I was in the gym a little earlier today, the TV was tuned to a live panel discussion on the status of Taiwan’s territorial sovereignty, and there was Richard Hartzell (as I assume it was: the name displayed on the screen was 何瑞元) playing an active part in arguing his unique interpretation thereof.

I couldn’t follow much of what they were saying because it was very noisy in the gym and there weren’t any Chinese subtitles, but it did appear that Richard was arguing his position quite forcefully, fluently and effectively. Kudos to you, RH!

But I was rather disgusted with the pig-faced fellow who insisted on speaking Taiwanese all the time (while everyone else was speaking Mandarin). It seemed almost as if he was deliberately trying to exclude the foreigner. Such rudeness is really inexcusable! How would he have felt if he had been invited to a panel discussion in the US and, knowing that he spoke English well but did not understand or had only a smattering of Spanish, one of the panelists insisted on speaking in Spanish whle everyone else was using English. Such a situation is quite unimaginable. I suppose the pig-mannered fellow must have been one of that worst kind of Hoklo chauvinist as is sometimes alluded to by others on this forum.[/quote]

can you really fault someone for taking their native language seriously, particularly in a discussion of this nature.

the speaker in question would probably change your analogy to one where your English speaking country had been overrun by first french then Spanish speakers and English had been supressed for one hundred years. if one insists on using their native tongue in a political discussion in such a context i disagree strongly you can call him rude–even if you disagree with his outlook, in lieu of evidence to the contrary you have to give him credit for the honesty of his viewpoint.

actually I might expect that someone treading this ground would have done a bit of preparation in this regard.[/quote]

It’s only rude if you choose to be offended. Clearly someone who decides to speak in a language other people don’t understand if saying “I don’t want to talk to you” or “You have no right to speak on this topic because you do not speak my language”.

Being from Northern Ireland I have engaged in the We Were Here First Argument many times. The answer to that is that all discussions in Taiwan must henceforth take place in whatever it is the aboriginal people speak, but if archaeologists discover someone else was here before even them, then we have to find out what they spoke, and speak that instead. And similarly there is no place for the English language in America. We have had this debate in Ireland quite a few times, and there are plenty of Irish citizens in Ireland who could not have a debate on the Irish constitution in Irish. Should we exclude them from future debates? This reductio ad absurdum still goes on daily in Ireland and usually ends with “well yis are all a shower a feckers annyway!”

I’m sure the chap takes his native language very seriously, but so what? How does he know Richard Hartzell doesn’t understand Taiwanese? Does he know that for a fact? These kind of “one-idea” ranters are easily trumped. We have more than a couple of hard-line Loyalist fluent Irish speakers in the North. Are they more or less Irish than non-Irish-speaking Southerners? And so on for 400 years. :idunno:

(OT: BTW, Which one of you “Irish speakers” on the board would like to translate my signature? Ha Ha! :wink: )

Status Quo are class.

14

Status Quo is the easiest way of people making money over this island. So no one wants to discuss about it.

Face it - Status Quo means no one is talking about real governance, only about hypothesis of war… so all this Status Quo sh*t you heard all the time is a way for the corrupt governments to say - “look, we can be attacked at anytime, so why should we care about some corruption? We have to be prepared to war.”

15

^ That’s a very unique interpretation of Status Quo.

So declaring unification/independence would be end of Status Quo and political corruption on Taiwan. :loco:

16

So does that mean that the official language will be English? I don’t think that’s going to go over very well with either the natives or the expat teachers… :slight_smile:

17

some of these guys just always speak taiwanese, they won’t speak mandarin. i don’t know about this guy, if he usually speaks mandarin in political discussions and was only speaking taiwanese to shut out richard–who i’m pretty sure from some his posts has a smattering of taiwanese only–then call him a dick, sure. if that’s not the case i don’t think you can really expect him to change his habits/convictions for richard’s sake. you could say he wasn’t contributing to the smoothest level of political discourse possible but nothing close to rude imo.

am i right hexuan in thinking irish is far more of a dead language than taiwanese? how would you estimate the % number of fluent speakers in ireland? i understand your point regardless but not sure the two situations are exactly analagous either. certainly the irish history for this issue is a lot deeper and perhaps more of a moot issue at this point.

18

Irish is not widely spoken in Ireland but it is still an official language and you are still entitled to conduct your business with the government in Irish if you wish. There are communities where Irish is spoken almost exclusively, and it has been enjoying a bit of resurgence over the last few years because (IMHO) it is no longer seen as the preserve of rabid nationalists. This is of course a good thing. Taiwanese is of course spoken throughout Taiwan by the majority of people, by far more people as a percentage than Irish is in Ireland.

However, I’m not altogether sure why there is a requirement in Taiwan to speak Taiwanese. Is this because most people speak Taiwanese, or is it because it is being claimed that Taiwanese is the original Taiwanese language and that anybody who doesn’t speak it is a “foreigner” and should go home? The only reason Minnan Hua is spoken here is because Taiwan is close to Fujian and has been effectively colonised by Fujianese over the years. So this chap’s point appears to me to boil down to “You must speak the Taiwanese version of the Chinese dialect Minnan Hua in order to be considered Taiwanese” and I disagree. What about Yuanzhumin who don’t speak Taiwanese? Where would he send them?

I still think the crux of the argument is the “we conquered this land before you. How dare you come along and conquer us!?”.

19

[quote=“hexuan”]

However, I’m not altogether sure why there is a requirement in Taiwan to speak Taiwanese. Is this because most people speak Taiwanese, or is it because it is being claimed that Taiwanese is the original Taiwanese language and that anybody who doesn’t speak it is a “foreigner” and should go home? The only reason Minnan Hua is spoken here is because Taiwan is close to Fujian and has been effectively colonised by Fujianese over the years. So this chap’s point appears to me to boil down to “You must speak the Taiwanese version of the Chinese dialect Minnan Hua in order to be considered Taiwanese” and I disagree. What about Yuanzhumin who don’t speak Taiwanese? Where would he send them?

I still think the crux of the argument is the “we conquered this land before you. How dare you come along and conquer us!?”.[/quote]

I’m not altogether sure there IS any such requirement :laughing: and the chance on there ever being one is probably about the same as everyone in Ireland being required to speak Irish. Taiwanese was repressed in education/politics/media for a long time so such a reaction is not surprising now in my opinion. There are many people who see the language as being on the road that Irish was shunted onto and simply aren’t happy about it and would like to do something about it. I’m sure there are bigots like you describe, but in the absence of evidence to the contrary I can’t see applying that label to anyone deciding they would rather communicate in their own native tongue.

20

ac, it doesn’t mean the corruption will end, but don’t you think that people would start talking more about it and less in collors?
Once there is no independance/unification issue, people will focus on improving the quality of life, lowering bureaucracy and being more and more worried about corruption. Only in the day people will be less lenient with corrupt politicians, corruption will end. While people still vote for crooks to govern them, there will be no end to corruption.

Believe in me, I couldn’t care less about this, it doesn’t affect me in anyway. Just that it makes me feel bad when I think about the people who gets killed because some constructor was supposed to build protection walls of 60 cm and did only 30. This is what nobody talks about, takes 1 minute in the news in 1 day, and then ends up being forgotten - in the end, it was nobody’s fault. Nobody checked anyway. Maybe if it was the son of someone important, than there would be trouble. But unfortunatelly, it was just normal familly kid.

Face it, corruption exists because the courts let it exist. Corruption exists because the public workers are not fired when they are found to be corrupt, just moved into another place. Corruption exists because the public is more worried about China then about their own country.

Also, for the language discussion, people could turn more radical as Catalonian did - speaking spanish in some parts of Catalonia is the equivalent of having a bad look. They where also opressed by the dictatorship and some people really feel bad against Spanish.