The editors of the TAIWAN DAILY NEWS published an article in the May 22nd edition regarding the fact that the so-called Republic of China nationality of persons in Taiwan is without legal basis. This was written jointly by Dr. Roger Lin and myself.
I should note that this is a highly condensed version of an article on the same subject which we did about a month earlier. That earlier version included several charts and diagrams.
Unfortunately, due to the space constraints in most daily newspapers in Taiwan, we were only able to get the condensed version published at this time. The longer version would probably be more suitable for a weekly or monthly magazine.
We do not have an English translation available.
If anyone would be interested in translating this into English, Dr. Lin and I would have no objection, although we would want permission to post that on the Taiwan Defense Alliance website.
Oh my. I suppose all 23 million ROC pseudocitizens will be running for legal cover as soon as they read that one. Gee, which country is most likely to give them, upon their own request, a passport that’s recognized all over the world as having come from a sovereign state? Multiple choice quiz:
a.) The United States
b.) Japan
c.) The People’s Republic of China
I really am confused about this. Coming from Northern Ireland, I have a British passport (like it or not).
Until recently, the Republic of Ireland also claimed sovereignty over the North too, and because fof this I was able to ask them for an Irish passport, which they were more than happy to provide.
If the PROC government considers Taiwan their property, then why don’t they provide passports to anyone who wants them? Or maybe they do… Do they?
Of course I’m not saying anyone would necessarily want them, but surely the choice must be available…
[quote=“irishstu”]I really am confused about this. Coming from Northern Ireland, I have a British passport (like it or not).
Until recently, the Republic of Ireland also claimed sovereignty over the North too, and because fof this I was able to ask them for an Irish passport, which they were more than happy to provide.
If the PROC government considers Taiwan their property, then why don’t they provide passports to anyone who wants them? Or maybe they do… Do they?
Of course I’m not saying anyone would necessarily want them, but surely the choice must be available…[/quote]
Very interesting point. They do, but on a narrow basis. I don’t know if there’s a general policy out there for it but it seems like there should be based on this kind of thinking
At the very least I’d think that for those who can prove that they have roots or former citizenship with the PRC, they would be able to get a PRC passport. Just like what Taiwan does for their Overseas Chinese brethren sans Taiwan ID number (but if you can prove Chinese blood, you can get one too).
[quote=“Yellow Cartman”][quote=“irishstu”]I really am confused about this. Coming from Northern Ireland, I have a British passport (like it or not).
Until recently, the Republic of Ireland also claimed sovereignty over the North too, and because fof this I was able to ask them for an Irish passport, which they were more than happy to provide.
If the PROC government considers Taiwan their property, then why don’t they provide passports to anyone who wants them? Or maybe they do… Do they?
Of course I’m not saying anyone would necessarily want them, but surely the choice must be available…[/quote]
Very interesting point. They do, but on a narrow basis. I don’t know if there’s a general policy out there for it but it seems like there should be based on this kind of thinking
At the very least I’d think that for those who can prove that they have roots or former citizenship with the PRC, they would be able to get a PRC passport. Just like what Taiwan does for their Overseas Chinese brethren sans Taiwan ID number (but if you can prove Chinese blood, you can get one too).[/quote]
I doubt any ROC citizens have tried to get PRC passports. Unless it’s for ideological reasons, why would they? One big reason that ROC citizens are more than happy to keep their passports is that they can travel to more countries visa free than mainland PRC passport holders can. Perhaps Hartzell should tell all these countries that they should at least make all these “illegal” passport holders pay for a visa, you know, seeing as how they’re illegal and all.
No, if someone wants to have citizenship in a non-recognzied government in exile which will never be able to join the United Nations … then that is their option.
[quote=“Jive Turkey”][quote=“Yellow Cartman”][quote=“irishstu”]I really am confused about this. Coming from Northern Ireland, I have a British passport (like it or not).
Until recently, the Republic of Ireland also claimed sovereignty over the North too, and because fof this I was able to ask them for an Irish passport, which they were more than happy to provide.
If the PROC government considers Taiwan their property, then why don’t they provide passports to anyone who wants them? Or maybe they do… Do they?
Of course I’m not saying anyone would necessarily want them, but surely the choice must be available…[/quote]
Very interesting point. They do, but on a narrow basis. I don’t know if there’s a general policy out there for it but it seems like there should be based on this kind of thinking
At the very least I’d think that for those who can prove that they have roots or former citizenship with the PRC, they would be able to get a PRC passport. Just like what Taiwan does for their Overseas Chinese brethren sans Taiwan ID number (but if you can prove Chinese blood, you can get one too).[/quote]
I doubt any ROC citizens have tried to get PRC passports. Unless it’s for ideological reasons, why would they? [/quote]
$$$. Easier to blend in, do business etc.
That’ll change soon. As the PRC starts to really export their cash in the form of shopping like they have in France, Dubai, US, Canada and other places, PRC money will talk. Countries will let PRC holders visa free-er access. It’s just a matter of time.
ROC can’t travel visa free to THAT many countries.
Hartzell, with all due respect, your time, energy, vast knowledge of ROC law, resources, connections, etc. would be much better served (and appreciated) by helping those foreigners in Taiwan who have been disenfranchized and/or treated unfairly rather than going after this kind of pipe dream. “International law”, whether your are right or wrong, isn’t going to do anything to change the current de facto state of affairs on Taiwan. It just ain’t gonna happen.
I don’t really care if the ROC is in the UN or not. No big deal. Being part of the UN never made my life better, and being without it has not done me any harm. The UN is simply… irrelevant.
Being part of the UN would be great news for Taiwan. It would help internationalize their plight. It would allow Taiwan to have full diplomatic relations with big countries, have FT agreements, enter international organizations and have full military alliances. However, Richard is right…the ROC will never be allowed to join the UN.
I wonder, and my questions is not intended to take any sides, as to what extent recognition by others is required, i.e. is recognition by just one country enough or must it be several countries (how many exactly?) - or does recognition refer to something else, e.g. an international body like the UN?
Heh. I think several millions of Americans are in full accord with this statement.
The fact of the matter is that legal niceties don’t really matter. A country is a group of people with enough guns (or gun equivalent; MK Gandhi found that pain will work effectively too if there’s enough witnesses) that other countries find it too much trouble not to let it have its own way. The whole idea of self-determination says that you shouldn’t need the guns, but that’s always been followed in the interests of the most militarily advanced powers, the current bully on the block.
International law is conveniently easy to ignore if one wants to, and devilishly hard to get enforced, no matter how just one’s claim, if one doesn’t have the power to enforce it oneself. Such is the tragedy of international politics. Esteemed legal opinions notwithstanding.
Required for what? What kind of recognition you need depends on what you want to do with it.[/quote]
I am refering to the definition of statehood, i.e. what makes a souvereign / independent country:
[quote]States and Independent Countries
Let’s start with what defines a State or an independent country. An independent State:
Has space or territory which has internationally recognized boundaries (boundary disputes are OK).
Has people who live there on an ongoing basis.
Has economic activity and an organized economy. A country regulates foreign and domestic trade and issues money.
Has the power of social engineering, such as education.
Has a transportation system for moving goods and people.
Has a government which provides public services and police power.
Has sovereignty. No other State should have power over the country’s territory.
The above analysis is interesting, however it is also “off the mark.”
All of the above “arguments” are fine from the civilian point of view, or from the viewpoint of peacetime international law.
As I have stated many times however, these civilian arguments do not take into account situations involving (1) military occupation, (2) governments in exile, (3) territorial cessions with no clear transfer of title.
Taiwan involves all of these … and Taiwan’s international legal position cannot be computed unless you calculate in the laws of war.
