RZR Revival?

Life Cars & Motorcycles
1

Known Problems on an RZR that’s been standing for an unspecified time (with a holed tank)

(1) The forks are leaking, as per usual, but this looks like brown grease, which suggests water ingress and advanced internal corrosion to me. One of them is also lightly pitted, though its in the upper part of the stanction so may not of itself be fatal.

I THINK seals are available but forks aren’t. If this is true and these are junk, as seems likely, then that’s a show stopper unless there are other forks that fit, or unless I get them re-ground and re-chromed (?) which sounds very expensive.

(2) No instrument lights, headlights or indicators on fitting replacement (used) battery and switching on. 12V at first and second connectors from + terminal. Didn’t open up instrument panel since didn’t have the right bits with me, so no real systematic investigation so far. Switches feel very loose (no palpable contact resistance).

Anyone know common failure modes/diagnostics for the RZR electrics?

2

1- I’m sure you can find forks for that bike. I think I will have to source that and get a price for you to satisfy my curiosity. Seals are indeed available as I have replaced them on a RZR a couple years ago. I would replace the seals and I would use a thicker gear oil instead of the thinner fork oil and see how that works. Knowing what you intend to do with the bike, forks performance isn’t a big issue but ongoing leaks would be annoying. New seals and thicker oil is the way to go. If they leak, then you can look into getting replacements.

2- Use a test light and find out where the power is interrupted. I suspect a corroded fuse. Clean the contacts, replace the main fuse. Then use the tester and see if the power makes it to the ignition before you bother to open up the instrument panel. If the power makes it to the ignition switch, then test to see if it the output of the switch has power when it’s on “ON” position. If it does, work your way up from there.

marboulette

3

OK, thanks. Makes sense.

Seems to be fitted with extra long battery wires, and had an (extra?) inline fuze holder, which did have corroded connections and high resistance/large voltage drop, but fixing that didn’t fix the problem. I guess there’ll be more of the same, but it disappears into the wiring loom after that. The mosquitos started arriving in quantity and I called it a day.

Oil filler cap didn’t fit, and there was dirt/sludge in the bottom of the tank. I drained, cleaned and replaced the oil, of course, but if its been drinking dirt for a long time it bodes ill for the engine. The outlet is pretty much at the bottom of the tank so there isn’t much of a sludge trap.

Edit: Thinking about it, the oil pump could be clogged. Maybe I’d better check that out.
Or I could just run premix to start with. Bit of smoke/fouled plugs’d be better than a seized engine.

4

[quote=“Ducked”]
Edit: Thinking about it, the oil pump could be clogged. Maybe I’d better check that out.
Or I could just run premix to start with. Bit of smoke/fouled plugs’d be better than a seized engine.[/quote]
This is why I mentioned bleeding the oil pump in your other thread. At the very least, run on a little 2T premixed into the gas for start up. Pull the small (like 4mm OD) pipe from the oil pump to the carb, block the spigot on the carb because it will pull air and lean out the mixture so far it might not start, and see that your 2T comes up the pipe. You really do want to get into that cover sooner or later to check the oil pump is properly. I don’t think I’ve ever seen one that was set up correctly.

5

[quote=“redwagon”][quote=“Ducked”]
Edit: Thinking about it, the oil pump could be clogged. Maybe I’d better check that out.
Or I could just run premix to start with. Bit of smoke/fouled plugs’d be better than a seized engine.[/quote]
This is why I mentioned bleeding the oil pump in your other thread. At the very least, run on a little 2T premixed into the gas for start up. Pull the small (like 4mm OD) pipe from the oil pump to the carb, block the spigot on the carb because it will pull air and lean out the mixture so far it might not start, and see that your 2T comes up the pipe. You really do want to get into that cover sooner or later to check the oil pump is properly. I don’t think I’ve ever seen one that was set up correctly.[/quote]

I got the cover off (as described in the petrol tank thread) and I loosened what I take to be the screw you mentioned, but I guess maybe I should have removed it and seen if oil drained out?

I’ll do as you suggest above (disconnect the pump and run on premix while seeing if the pump delivers) if/when I get to the point of trying to start it, though I’ll need to make some electrical progress first (and I have to mark papers now :cry: )

I put some 2T (about 3 mls) down the plug hole and wheeled it around in gear some, so at least it turns over and the surfaces have had some lubrication.

A conservative premix ratio would be what, about 20:1?, but that’s probably an all-speeds ratio and since I wont be pushing it initially (and probably never REALLY pushing it) maybe, to reduce smoking and plug fouling I could get away with, say 30:1 until/if the pump gets sorted?

Looking (rather optimistically) ahead, I understand that the pump delivers a variable amount of oil (more at higher revs). Is it possible/realistic to check this while stationary, say by drop-counting at different steady rpm. I guess it might not be at the top end because the engines likely to overheat when stationary. Rig a fan?

I took the instrument cluster off to give better acceess to the ignition switch for eletrical testing, though from a quick look I can’t see how to get the latter apart (The switch has got two very small screws at the front, one of which is a bit chewed, and stuck). The indicator bulbs (neutral, etc) seem very reluctant to detach from their rubber holders, and one of them is covered in glue. I’m hoping they havn’t been glued in place, and I can’t really see why anyone would do that.

6

because otherwise they fall out?

and 20:1 seems way too rich, but then I’m no expert, and have holed a couple in my time.

i do know that running 20:1 in a chainsaw is a bad idea, though it seems ok for outboard motors of 1980s vintage and earlier.

7

Hmmm… Silly question… Have you checked to see if you get a spark? Have you checked to see if fuel is flowing? Pull the fuel intake off the carb and crank it a few times. If fuel flows, you’re good. Test to see if you have a spark when you crank the bike. If you have fuel and you have a spark, then it should bloody start unless the engine compression is nothing but gone. Does the kick starter offer some kind of resistance?

Personally, I wouldn’t worry too much about the instrument cluster and the electrical in general just yet so long as you have a spark.

marboulette

8

because otherwise they fall out?

and 20:1 seems way too rich, but then I’m no expert, and have holed a couple in my time.

I do know that running 20:1 in a chainsaw is a bad idea, though it seems ok for outboard motors of 1980s vintage and earlier.[/quote]

The holders are pretty tight in the instrument cluster, but yeh, I suppose if you’re not bothered about what happens when you need to replace a bulb, then you might glue them in the holders. The mark of a true professional. If thats what they’ve done its going to be a pain to fix.

I’ve seen signs before that the local mechanics are addicted to contact adhesive in more ways than one. My Zing carb had been glued together and was a real bugger to get apart, and I never could get the crankcase to separate, though I don’t know for sure why.

20:1 was a rather conservative ratio trawled from the web here http://www.dansmc.com/2stroke_oil.htm. I’ve since checked the NSR manual (closest I’ve got)and it says 25-50:1 for running the engine to prime the pump. As I said I’ll probably go with 30:1 initially.

9

Premix a liter of gas. 20:1 would be fine for a quick run up. Remember that unless you fit bigger jets, putting oil in gas means there is less gas in the mix than before (duh). Less gas through the jets for given air means leaner mixture. It is not safer to run premix (with or without injection) unless you increase jet sizes, so don’t be tempted. Once you get on it you risk overheating but for a little testing it will be fine.

Yes, that small cross head screw should be removed to prime the pump. If you let a little oil run through after the bubbles are done you will flush it fairly well.
Once you’ve done that, wind the throttle wide open. At WOT you might see a line on the pump cable’s pulley aligned with a pointer on the pump body. Adjust the pump cable until it does.

Then when you have the engine running, check as mentioned before that oil pulses up the little tube to the carb, and put it back on. Fill the tank with straight fuel and that little premix left over won’t hurt anything.

10

[quote=“marboulette”]Hmmm… Silly question… Have you checked to see if you get a spark? Have you checked to see if fuel is flowing? Pull the fuel intake off the carb and crank it a few times. If fuel flows, you’re good. Test to see if you have a spark when you crank the bike. If you have fuel and you have a spark, then it should bloody start unless the engine compression is nothing but gone. Does the kick starter offer some kind of resistance?

Personally, I wouldn’t worry too much about the instrument cluster and the electrical in general just yet so long as you have a spark.

marboulette[/quote]

Not a silly question at all, but maybe a silly answer.

I can’t see any sign of a spark when I kick it, but I find it a bit awkward kicking it and holding the plug to an earth, so its possible I aint doin it right. I used to have a double-ended clip that was good for that kind of thing (I quite dislike electric shocks). Must make another one, but I THINK theres no spark.

Compression seems low but there is some, and my leg hasn’t been calibrated by the National Physical Laboratory, or by much experience, so I’m not sure anyway. I guess an actual compression test might not be practical with a foot-cranked 2-stroke, and I don’t have my tester in Taiwan anyway, though I could probably get it posted or (maybe) buy one.

I havn’t tried it with fuel yet, partly because there were other issues (electrical, and the dirty oil tank) but mostly because I want to be sure I have enough time to detect and deal with any leaks, so I’m leaving that to the weekend. The landlord (like most landlords) is hostile to DIY vehicle maintenance and a fuel leak (as well as being especially dangerous in the firetrap I live in) would be too provocative.

I took the ignition switch apart and got 12V on one of the contacts, but later got nothing, so either there’s intermittant contact, my (cheapo) multimeter is crap, or both. The meter seems to turn into a random number generator quite soon after I put a new battery in it, so I’ll get, or make, a test light, which should be more reliable.

11

because otherwise they fall out?

and 20:1 seems way too rich, but then I’m no expert, and have holed a couple in my time.

I do know that running 20:1 in a chainsaw is a bad idea, though it seems ok for outboard motors of 1980s vintage and earlier.[/quote]

The holders are pretty tight in the instrument cluster, but yeh, I suppose if you’re not bothered about what happens when you need to replace a bulb, then you might glue them in the holders. The mark of a true professional. If thats what they’ve done its going to be a pain to fix.

I’ve seen signs before that the local mechanics are addicted to contact adhesive in more ways than one. My Zing carb had been glued together and was a real bugger to get apart, and I never could get the crankcase to separate, though I don’t know for sure why.

20:1 was a rather conservative ratio trawled from the web here http://www.dansmc.com/2stroke_oil.htm. I’ve since checked the NSR manual (closest I’ve got)and it says 25-50:1 for running the engine to prime the pump. As I said I’ll probably go with 30:1 initially.[/quote]

Glued-in bulbs was just my parenoia. In better light the glue is an attempt to fix a split in the holder, and the bulbs come out OK

12

Put it back together and I’ve got a spark now. I hadnt really done anything to the ignition system but maybe disassembling/cleaning the ignition switch, battery terminals and main fuse helped, or maybe I didn’t have a good earth to the plug before. I used a jump lead this time, which I should have thought of earlier.

I was concerned that I might have fried the CDI when kicking it over or when pushing it around in gear with the plug out (to oil the cylinder), since apparently an open HT circuit can do that. It could still be damaged, of course, but at least it isnt totally dead.

Lights and instruments are still dead and I still havn’t cleaned the carb, but I’m empted to defer that and try it with some petroil tomorrow

13

Good luck tomorrow, Ed. :slight_smile:

marboulette

14

Well, tomorrow was today, and today there was no spark.

However, I accidentally (duh) tried to start it with the plug lead disconnected. The manuals I have (NSR, TZR, and Honda common service manual) all warn against that so I may REALLY have fried the CDI this time.

Stupid, but if they’re really that fragile they’ll inevitably have a short life in my hands, I’m afraid.

The manuals give fault tracing procedures for the CDI, but its quite difficult to identify the appropriate wires, (especially from the wrong manual) and the resistance etc specs are probably different.

They also all specify particular (probably unobtainable and almost certainly extremely expensive) makes and models of test meters to be used, suggesting that my Cheapo Chinese all-night-hardware store special (“Hao Lin” brand, I think,4WIW) multimeter may not be up to the job, despite its nice yellow FLUKE stylee rubbery case.

I dont mind getting a better meter (any recommendations, BTW?) but can’t see me buying a specialised CDI tester, as specified in the Honda CSM. I had a mildly pricy Gunson multimeter in the UK which had some specialised automative functions (dwell, and some stuff to do with FI) that seemed a reasonable compromise.

4WIW the secondary coil and plug lead resistance was 10.66 mega-ohms, by the Chimeter, which sounds about right?Havn’t measured anything else yet.

I’ll trace back through the ignition componenets, cleaning contacts etc, but since there was a spark yesterday thats unlikely to fix it. I assume its the actual CDI unit that gets fried. Any practical way to diagnose that, other than swapping for a “known good” one?

Anyone know if these components are specific to the RZR (and therefore probably unobtainable) or can one still buy them?

15

Its ALIVE!!!

Finally harnessed the lightening, robbed a corpse, kicked it a few times, remembered to turn the juice on, kicked it a few more times and cue tapocketa tapocketa tapocketa and clouds of smoke.

Got most of the lights now too, except Neutral and another one I’ve forgotten.

Havn’t ridden it yet but I’ll try that tommorrow, hopefully early when its a bit quiter

The oil pump thingy actually does pulsate in a visceral sort of way, and does seem to deliver more oil at higher revs, but I dunno if its delivering the right amount of oil, and I don’t know how one would tell. I can’t see any obvious alignment marks. 4WIW the pin that rides up the circular wedge/ramp is level with the end of the cable at full throttle

I’m wondering if there would be be any point in collecting the oil it delivers while on a run of a few kilometers (on premix, of course), measuring its volume, and seeing if it seemed reasonable? I guess not, because the pump output will be heavily dependent on riding style (likely to be extremely timid) as well as mileage.

I’d guess its OK but I’m a bit reluctant to switch from premix and risk seisure.

Rubber boot on the front brake is a sticky mess. I’m guessing its been attacked by oil from the leaky forks, which has probably also contaminated the pads. Anyone know if brake components are still available for these machines? Front brake was stolen on the other one which might suggest not.

16

Drive chain slack specification, anybody?

The specs for other machines seem to vary a lot, eg

Yam TZR 30-35 mm
Yam DT125: 25 - 40 mm
Honda NSR: 25 - 35 mm
Honda cg125: 20 mm. No max given (Haynes)

In the abscence of any other info, TZR numbers seem the safest

17

I tried to source out the forks, BTW. It’s a no go, indeed. No longer available. Seals are available, though.

As for the oil pump, a rule of thumb is to have the lever all the way to the stopper when idling, and opening up right away when you turn the throttle. The same as the throttle cable, really. You don’t want a loose cable when idling, but you don’t want a tight cable pulling on the pump lever either.

Not sure about the front break components. Pads are definitely available, but the boots are less likely to be available on their own. At best, you’d have to buy a new caliper if it can be sourced.

And as for the chain slack. It’s not a biggie. Just eye it out, mate, and that’s good enough.

marboulette

[quote=“Ducked”]Its ALIVE!!!

Finally harnessed the lightening, robbed a corpse, kicked it a few times, remembered to turn the juice on, kicked it a few more times and cue tapocketa tapocketa tapocketa and clouds of smoke.

Got most of the lights now too, except Neutral and another one I’ve forgotten.

Havn’t ridden it yet but I’ll try that tommorrow, hopefully early when its a bit quiter

The oil pump thingy actually does pulsate in a visceral sort of way, and does seem to deliver more oil at higher revs, but I dunno if its delivering the right amount of oil, and I don’t know how one would tell. I can’t see any obvious alignment marks. 4WIW the pin that rides up the circular wedge/ramp is level with the end of the cable at full throttle

I’m wondering if there would be be any point in collecting the oil it delivers while on a run of a few kilometers (on premix, of course), measuring its volume, and seeing if it seemed reasonable? I guess not, because the pump output will be heavily dependent on riding style (likely to be extremely timid) as well as mileage.

I’d guess its OK but I’m a bit reluctant to switch from premix and risk seisure.

Rubber boot on the front brake is a sticky mess. I’m guessing its been attacked by oil from the leaky forks, which has probably also contaminated the pads. Anyone know if brake components are still available for these machines? Front brake was stolen on the other one which might suggest not.[/quote]

18

IME, the pumps either work fine or fail completely. I would let it idle and just rotate the pump pulley to the maximum throttle position (without touching the throttle of course). You should see the oil volume increase a bunch which shows the pump stroke is changing with the pulley position.
The pump setting is more critical. Maybe if you hold the throttle wide open and take a photo I can identify the marks for you. Otherwise, there is a simple rule of thumb. You’ll notice on the pump pulley the ramp flattens out toward the WOT position. Beyond about 3/4 throttle the volume of air flowing through the carb doesn’t increase as fast as it did in the half throttle area. Pump output also increases with engine revs. The pump stroke should reach maximum at about 3/4 throttle so you can adjust the pump cable that the steel pin just reaches the top of the ramp on the pulley at the appropriate point. There ARE marks to align but they are a little hard to find. Once you have that sorted, fill with straight gas and go.

19

[quote=“redwagon”]
IME, the pumps either work fine or fail completely. I would let it idle and just rotate the pump pulley to the maximum throttle position (without touching the throttle of course). You should see the oil volume increase a bunch which shows the pump stroke is changing with the pulley position.
The pump setting is more critical. Maybe if you hold the throttle wide open and take a photo I can identify the marks for you. Otherwise, there is a simple rule of thumb. You’ll notice on the pump pulley the ramp flattens out toward the WOT position. Beyond about 3/4 throttle the volume of air flowing through the carb doesn’t increase as fast as it did in the half throttle area. Pump output also increases with engine revs. The pump stroke should reach maximum at about 3/4 throttle so you can adjust the pump cable that the steel pin just reaches the top of the ramp on the pulley at the appropriate point. There ARE marks to align but they are a little hard to find. Once you have that sorted, fill with straight gas and go.[/quote]

OK, makes sense. Thanks. I’ll have another look at it, though it probably wont be until next weekend. End of term soon and I havn’t marked all the midterms yet. Ho and hum.

20

[quote=“marboulette”]I tried to source out the forks, BTW. It’s a no go, indeed. No longer available. Seals are available, though.

As for the oil pump, a rule of thumb is to have the lever all the way to the stopper when idling, and opening up right away when you turn the throttle. The same as the throttle cable, really. You don’t want a loose cable when idling, but you don’t want a tight cable pulling on the pump lever either.

Not sure about the front break components. Pads are definitely available, but the boots are less likely to be available on their own. At best, you’d have to buy a new caliper if it can be sourced.

And as for the chain slack. It’s not a biggie. Just eye it out, mate, and that’s good enough.

marboulette

[/quote]

Thanks for making that enquiry. Bad news about the forks but not really a surprise that the originals aren’t available. I do wonder though if, in extremis, other forks could be substituted, or , in extreme extremis, a whole new front end. I THINK I’ve heard that FZR bits (probably still available)? can be made to fit, though I’m not sure where I heard it.

Re “eying out” the chain slack, I thought it looked far too slack, BUT I ain’t no expert, and the word on the wires is that most people have their chains too tight.

Anyway, it measures about 70 mm, (Edit: measured with the bike on the centre stand, which is practical so almost certainly is NOT the reference state for the specification. That’ll be something like “fully loaded, with the rider playing a tuba while proceeding on a perfectly level surface at a speed of not less than 100kph”) which IS far too slack if the above numbers are relevant, and since these machines are known to throw thier chain and chew out the circlip groove so the wheels scrap, I figured I’d better not ride it like that.

The castellated chain-side 22mm axle nut looks OK (though there’s no split pin) but the rather small (17mm?)
nut on the other side is a bit chewed and burred, and I couldn’t get a 17mm socket on it, though it looks to be the right size. I’ll try cleaning it up with a file, but I didn’t have one available today.

In fact the flats look to have been torsionally twisted (?!!) which, if its possible (?), suggests massive overtightening and grief to come. It may also explain why the chain is so slack, ie because its (near?) impossible to adjust.

I gave it the ritual anointing in penetrating oil, and I’ll attack it with files and levers later. With a car I’ve sometimes found it possible to use the vehicles weight to budge a stubborn nut, by lowering it onto the end of the spanner/breaker bar/etc. A hydraulic jack gives a lot of control and you don’t have to be under the car close to highly stressed bits of metal. Can’t think of a way to use that trick with a bike though.

Might be worth getting a “metrinch”(?) spanner/socket, (with curved contact faces that bear on the centre of the flats ) for this job. Never used one but it might avoid chewing the corners off, which seems very likely otherwise.