Salary raises

Those who have real desire to learn and use English in the work environment will make it happen, even coming from a zero foundation. I know many who speak English fine and never had more than the crap public school classes. I work with many very local, small town people who are forced to use English at work. It was do or die once they entered the work force. No motivator like pressure and white boss ha!

Those that agonize about speaking correctly or not speaking at all, who bring all that shyness to the table, don’t do as well.

Those who don’t have the guts to jump into the fire will not use English and will not get those type jobs, no matter how many years of bushiban

.sorry i can’t find the delete button.

Do you guys feel if a teacher with higher qualification (TEFL certification, teaching certification, etc), would this make a big difference in terms of salary in Taiwan?
Also would schools be able to market this qualified teacher for higher charges to the students?

I feel a lot of businesses in Taiwan (especially major chains) are focus more on their own profit than to focus on a product that would actually give results to the customers.
For example, World Gym probably has some of the most unprofessional and unqualified trainers trying to rake in as much profit as possible while their personal training service usually provide
no result for their clients.

I would love to hear what English school or gym owners feedback on this as well.

The answer as you know is no.

I think you (and many people) overrate qualifications and also experience. There are people that can teach and there are people that suck at teaching regardless of their qualifications.

The biggest problem is that many parents have no idea how to evaluate a buxiban even if they have students learning there. The concrete feedback that parents get is in the form of standardized test scores (which don’t measure anything useful) and their student’s satisfaction. It will take many years of learning before they are able to see any significant difference. Because of that parents might give positive referrals to mediocre buxibans (a typical chain school) at the same rate as better buxibans. So price becomes a significant determining factor for parents.

I also am not sure how you actually go about marketing a highly qualified teacher to parents. Every buxiban will say their teachers are highly qualified because of X, Y and Z and the parents will have no idea what any of those qualifications mean.

They are probably doing this anyway. They’ll still just hire unqualifieds and see how well they wing it.

Abacus, I think you bring a good point, parents have no idea how to evaluate a buxiban or even the quality of the teacher besides test scores.
What if there is a metric system or authentic reviews of a teacher given by students or maybe even schools (sorta like ratemyprofessor.com), would this help teacher to have a higher salary?
Anybody has any other experiences that had helped to get a higher salary when negotiating with schools? (long history of working experience, certification, referrals, etc?)
Really hope we can have some constructive ideas to help great teachers getting the salary they deserve.

The bulk of English teachers in Taiwan teach elementary and kindergarten students. I see no feasible way to get anything resembling accurate reviews out of them onto an online site.

The best way to get a higher salary is to find schools that are not your standard Taiwanese style buxiban and value long term development instead memorization and teaching to the test. Unfortunately these are rare. I understand what you are trying to do here but I don’t see how you tip the scales in a market that is dominated by large chains and their copycats.

[quote=“njitdrew”]
What if there is a metric system or authentic reviews of a teacher given by students or maybe even schools (sorta like ratemyprofessor.com), would this help teacher to have a higher salary?
.[/quote]

What metric? Student reviews? All things being equal, any clown can get a bunch of kids to write ‘very good!’ on a feedback form. Conversely, you could work incredibly well but still be deeply unpopular. Would you like a pay system where the 26 year old white females or the blue-eyed guy with big muscles with no qualifications and experience get paid more than the middle-aged, or the non-white teachers?

We have feedback like that where I work, and the main function of it is to monitor student beliefs, not teaching ability.

The review I had in mind is not something that any random person can give. Only the students that had paid for a private tutor session to the teacher for example can give a rating.
Also if the school would be willing to rate this teacher maybe every month or 3 month with a metric system (on time, responsible, better results from students, etc), maybe this would help.
Ideally, I would also like to rate the schools as well, where students/teacher can provide their ratings (how they treat staff/students, working environment, benefits, etc).
The Goal is connect only qualified teachers and schools together at the same time bring up both side’s reputation. I’m guessing for any standard buxiban, they definitely wouldn’t be interested in this but again those places are probably not worth to work at either.

Just throwing something out on the top of my head. Perhaps you guys have other ideas which would make this into a win/win?

[quote=“njitdrew”]The review I had in mind is not something that any random person can give. Only the students that had paid for a private tutor session to the teacher for example can give a rating.
Also if the school would be willing to rate this teacher maybe every month or 3 month with a metric system (on time, responsible, better results from students, etc), maybe this would help.
Ideally, I would also like to rate the schools as well, where students/teacher can provide their ratings (how they treat staff/students, working environment, benefits, etc).
The Goal is connect only qualified teachers and schools together at the same time bring up both side’s reputation. I’m guessing for any standard buxiban, they definitely wouldn’t be interested in this but again those places are probably not worth to work at either.

Just throwing something out on the top of my head. Perhaps you guys have other ideas which would make this into a win/win?[/quote]

You overestimate your input. You don’t want student feedback to determine your pay unless you are either hot or incredibly experienced.

Your metrics are not useful: stuff such as timekeeping and be responsible is a pre-requisite. Stuff such as ‘Better results’ is not entirely in your control. So if you don’t get them, then what? Are you happy with how the school measures starting and finishing results? Does the student determine whether they improved? If they say they didn’t which most will because they are modest, are you happy with a lower pay rate? Also, that shit gets political really quick when you realise certain teachers are working the metrics to get the $$$ – getting the ‘easy’ classes, etc.

I see your point but I’d keep quiet at school as it flags you up as inexperienced: it’s clearly off the top of your head.

[quote=“njitdrew”]The review I had in mind is not something that any random person can give. Only the students that had paid for a private tutor session to the teacher for example can give a rating.
Also if the school would be willing to rate this teacher maybe every month or 3 month with a metric system (on time, responsible, better results from students, etc), maybe this would help.
Ideally, I would also like to rate the schools as well, where students/teacher can provide their ratings (how they treat staff/students, working environment, benefits, etc).
The Goal is connect only qualified teachers and schools together at the same time bring up both side’s reputation. I’m guessing for any standard buxiban, they definitely wouldn’t be interested in this but again those places are probably not worth to work at either.

Just throwing something out on the top of my head. Perhaps you guys have other ideas which would make this into a win/win?[/quote]

I see absolutely no way that this can work. And if it ever did then it would become abused. The students give all good reports and the teacher buys them pizza.

Thanks for the inputs guys, really appreciate your thoughts.

What would you wish for that you can show to the schools or students (for private sessions for example) that you are worth the rate your asking for (or a salary raise)?
How would you like to show the value that you can provide (to justified a higher pay) that you think the school might not see in you?
I mentioned rating because a resume can only go so far. But if there is a transparency of a history of “authentic reviews” this might help. Of course this is just an idea.

[quote=“njitdrew”]Thanks for the inputs guys, really appreciate your thoughts.

What would you wish for that you can show to the schools or students (for private sessions for example) that you are worth the rate your asking for (or a salary raise)?
How would you like to show the value that you can provide (to justified a higher pay) that you think the school might not see in you?
I mentioned rating because a resume can only go so far. But if there is a transparency of a history of “authentic reviews” this might help. Of course this is just an idea.[/quote]

Quantify your extra value, before you think about how to display this. How exactly do you prove you have better results? What form do these results take? How do you prove these results are down to your input and not chance or someone else’s work? If you’re working in private language schools there is absolutely no business reason to pay you more based on ‘results’. They just see if you’re popular or not and if you aren’t they get rid of you.

If you want more money, get a Masters and work somewhere with higher entry qualifications, probably outside Taiwan. Your ‘authentic reviews’ are your internationally credible references.

The OP is absolutely right. Wages should be at 800 entry level. That’s what everyone should be asking and expecting. There is no need for a school to raise their charges to pay teachers that much. A school with a full schedule and classes with 10 or more kids each can easily afford to pay 1200-1500 and still the boss gets to drive their beamer around no problem. 800 is incredibly reasonable, and arguably you are still getting pretty seriously exploited, considering how much money the boss is making off of you.

We aren’t Taiwanese, we are imported workers, we’ve given up our homes, families, friends and culture to be here, so yeah, I would say we should expect to get paid better and treated better than we would if we stayed home. I would say it’s reasonable not to compare us to native people. But you can’t anyway, because Taiwanese have a host of advantages from living here that drive their cost of living far below ours anyway. I also don’t believe for one second that the average salary is 30,000 which everyone is constantly touting, as though the government actually has a clue.

The average salary is 30,000 a month, but look at rent in Taipei, it’s 20,000 for a complete shit one bedroom apartment. I can’t explain how it is that Taiwanese families get by like that but my guess has always been that they either mostly have owned their homes for generations, are grandfathered in under old rates, OR maybe, just maybe, the average salary in Taiwan is closer to around 60,000 per month, because who has EVER worked for a job in Taiwan where the company reported over half of their worker’s actual wages? You have to admit, it just doesn’t add up. If families of 4 were living in Taipei on 30,000, they’d have all the kids and parents sleeping in the same bed and still one of them would starve by the end of the year. And average wages for english teachers in Taipei are still the same they are everywhere else, only 600NT. Frankly, I am shocked there is even one school that can find a teacher for 600nt in Taipei, I am constantly wondering how you guys even get by. You can’t possibly be saving hardly anything.

It amazes me that there isn’t a foreign teacher’s union. I saw a thread about it and was shocked at the animosity and hostility which was almost the only response from anyone. A guy suggests getting everyone salary raises, and fair working conditions where employers actually adhere to contracts, and everyone lines of up flame the hell out of him. That’s just insane…

A union seems so obvious, it blows my mind there is even a shred of resistance to it. And obviously that’s all it takes, to keep everyone scraping by forever and getting exploited by greedy cram school bosses. Just like all it would take would be for everyone to agree to ask for a reasonable wage, and we would get it. But if you take a poll, raise your hand if you want to get 600 an hour, now raise your hand if you want 800, those same idiots would of course raise their hand for the 800, but they all start throwing rocks at the guy who wants to organize and actually do it, as though it’s some kind of offensive idea.

You should open a buxiban, pay your teachers 800+/hr and drive around the beamer then. Sounds like an ideal solution.

Once again, sarcasm and belligerence in reply to suggestions to increase YOUR quality of life. Pretty sad, really. What’s wrong with you people?

You don’t need approval or help from people who disagree with you. Make your movement, make your move.

Can anyone name one – just one – buxiban that actually follows the law completely? If you think you know of one, read through the Labor Standards Act, all the associated regulations, and Chapter II Section 7 of the Civil Code and then reassess your answer. This is a serious challenge, though I haven’t thought of a prize because I don’t think there will be any winners. :unamused:

So here’s another idea: keep wages as meager as they are, for now (market forces should correct them eventually), but actually follow the law – all of it – and acknowledge that it’s just the right thing to do, not some kind of special favor for the employees. Result: life is not luxurious, but it’s at least somewhat comfortable. You can afford to get sick, have holidays off with pay, etc. And of course, you can’t be fired without a valid reason, and if you are then you will be taken care of temporarily through severance pay.

It’s baffling that so many foreigners think they don’t have or deserve labor rights. If the wages were absurdly high, that would at least be arguable, but as this thread demonstrates, most people agree we’re not earning anything exciting. (Taipei’s real estate market is absurd, but I think most Taiwanese residents, including entrepreneurs, have the same complaint.)

If the industry refuses to fix itself or let itself be fixed, then I agree that higher wages are the only way forward. For a “first world country” to have this situation in 2015 is a little sad… :2cents:

Btw I also disagree with the rewards/penalties idea. That kind of system may work in industries like hospitality where short-term customer satisfaction is the whole point. Customers therefore give feedback through tips, and usually the better performing (or at least better looking) employees are rewarded. Even this system has its drawbacks (nytimes.com/2015/08/24/busin … rices.html).

Education has results, good and bad, that last a lifetime. You can’t rely on short-term customer satisfaction as a measure of a teacher’s value, even if vote buying (pizza etc.) is somehow prevented. If a teacher knows what he/she’s doing – and an intelligent boss should be able to figure that out without interviewing every single student – then the salary should be correspondingly reasonable.

Two words: Quick money.

Three words: They don’t care.