I just gave 4 weeks notice at the school I teach at, as per my contract (this would have completed my 12 months contract). A week later my school asked me to leave, with no notice, because they found a new teacher. This is in addition to other breaches, such as not honouring a pay increase at six months and making me pay the full amount of labor insurance.
I have been in contact with Labor Affairs, who have said they will compel the school to pay two weeks notice, and they will ask the school to call me (that was Tuesday) -still nothing.
In addition to this, they took a NT$10,000 deposit from my pay (which I told them was illegal) and they gave less them the 14 hours per week (documented).
I am just so sick of the complete disregard for a written agreement, and I would love to teach them a lesson and sue them for all of their transgressions. :fume:
However, is it commercially viable to sue for what is possibly NT$60,000? -or should I just take the two weeks if it materialises? Could anyone give me some advice?
I have heard the small claims courts can not actually enforce their own judgment, and they it takes another court case to do that. Is that correct?
I’m just about ready to get sandwich boards made up and picket their school.
All advice appreciated.
There was a reply to this thread yesterday (Lord Lucan - thankyou), unfortunately (because I accidentally posted the initial thread twice) I guess the wrong thread was deleted.
OK, that reply was to the effect that my school should be in for a fine, because it’s illegal to ask for a deposit from anyone, they are obliged to pay their component of labor insurance, and they are required to show a pay slip detailing exactly how much they have deducted in insurances etc.
John S
[color=darkred]MODERATOR’S NOTE: Oops , sorry Johnny – my error. Very sorry for the inconvenience! – DB[/color]
The CLA told me that because I had initially agreed to my school taking the deposit from my wage, that there is nothing the CLA could do about this matter.
My school also failed to honor our contract for me to recieve a wage increase to $650NT per hour after six months. - same response from the CLA… because I continued to work at the school, that implies that I accepted the situation (in fact I complained to my school vigorously). The CLA also advised that I could sue the school, but they wouldn’t help.
So it seems that CLA are not interested in fining a school that behaves against the law, and that to the CLA, any contract isn’t worth the paper it’s written on.
The only support from the CLA, comes in the form of forcing the school to pay the required salary in leiu of notice. (which is 14 days pay for employees under 12 months)
I was contacted by my school last night, and asked to attend a meeting today at 3PM. I would still really appreciate advice as to the financial viability of civil action. As a teacher, I would love to teach my school to treat people honestly.
I think the Labour Law (lao dong fa) says that you must get a receipt for your wages showing all deductions every month. Deposits are illegal. The amount taken out for Jian Bao (NHI) and Lao Bao must be stated as well as the tax witheld. Get your company’s receipt number (tongyi bianhao) and ask the CLA to check. Meanwhile I’ll try and find a copy of the law.
Deposits are illegal. Even if you agree to it, it’s still illegal. I think the CLA flunkey is talking bullshit. I’d insist that they penalize the school, whether you get your deposit back or not. The school took a deposit, which is illegal.
Speak to another CLA official. The one you’re seeing now doesn’t seem to know his arse from a hole in the ground.
Thanks to Sandman and Lord Lucan. Apologies to Edgar Allen, I was perhaps a little hasty in my reply. If you are looking to work for a school in Tainan on Cheng Gung Rd, (straight down from the train station), give me a message first. I don’t thing anyone will be teaching there soon, there only foreign English teaching spot has now been taken over by a German.
I had a meeting with them this afternoon, and they told me that they would give me the option of returning to teach there for the next two weeks, or just finish up. The meeting wasn’t exactly a meeting of the minds, -I had to remind my boss not to raise her voice on several occasions.
After the meeting I called a local lawyer, who has advised that it would be probably be too expensive to have legal representation, but offered to draft and lodge the necessary documents for me to sue the school ($6,000NT), representing myself. I would be also allowed to have an interpreter.
I meet her at 10am Monday. At this stage, that is my plan. I’m going to try to stick it to them, if I dont, I encourage the same treatment to others.
You can do the Small Claims route, but be prepared for no one to take you seriously. As a foreigner, I mean. You’re perfectly within your rights, and the law would support your position. Make sure, however, that there isn’t a Chinese version of the contract that governs and might say something different.
Also note that you are required to go through one or two (can’t remember, I think it’s two) negotiation sessions at the courthouse before a real trial is held. Since both sides usually are very angry by this time, these don’t often work out but they can be entertaining.
NT$6000 for filing a small claims paperwork set is, um, rather a lot of money. My experience was that they don’t expect it to be perfect. The paperwork is quite simple; you just describe your problem and attach copies of all the relevant proofs. It might be easier for you just to have it done with, though. Does that include the filing fee?
You might be able to get the school to blink by first sending them two or three (in sequence, one week apart) “Post Office Registered Evidentiary Letters” (which will be considered a basic foundation for your small claims suit in any event). You have to buy the paper at the Post Office for NT$0.5 per sheet (this is where you can get the fun NT$0.5 coins in change if you count right!) and write your claim in Chinese in the squares on the paper. It doesn’t have to be perfect – a friend could do it – you just state the problem (just what you said in the OP) and state what you need to have happen (“If School X fails to pay me the NT$X it owes by date Y, I will take legal action.”) This is a good thing to do because a) sometimes they will cough up the dough when they realize you know how to work the system, and b) sometimes they don’t want to go to court anyway so will try to stay off the radar legally, and c) you need to do this anyway so as to have the proof that you DID it when you sue. You send one copy to the school, you keep one, and the Post Office keeps the third.
The thing to consider is a) how well-connected the school is, b) whether you are staying in Taiwan and specifically Tainan; and c) how much time you’re willing to put into this. For NT$60,000 it’s probably worth a shot. Be prepared also for the fact that even if you get a judgement, then you have to get it exercised, and they will appeal ad nauseum. Even with a clear-cut case and good documentation, it’s a crapshoot.
Thanks for your lengthy advice, I will comb it carefully. I’m quite sure that the lawyer is quoting $6,000 NT for the paperwork to lodge at the normal court (equivalent to a magistrates court where I come from). Actually, I asked her about the small claims court, and she told me she wasn’t familiar with them.
Would you advise me to try the small claims court if representing myself? -are their judgements enforcable?
Your CLA is wrong. You should at this point be talking to the CLA in Taipei. It is not possible to agree to a “deposit” because this is prohibited by statute. Rather than asking your lawyer to sue the school, which will only result in your obtaining a worthless piece of paper called a “judgement” (unenforceable in Taiwan), ask your lawyer about why the local CLA is not that interested in your case and how to make an appeal directly to HQ in Taipei. A much better use of NT$6k IMHO. You have to go the route of CLA assistance or administrative action. A civil suit is pointless. There is not really much in the way of enforcement, the civil law such as it is here is a decoration for the benefit of visiting dignataries and appeals for membership of the UN etc., much better off concentrating on getting the CLA to do its job if you can. Lawyer love civil actions because they know it is 15 years of nothing and they are the only ones paid at the end of it. I bet you five pints of beer your lawyer has no interest in an administrative action against the CLA, if it should come to that. No money in it for him, you could almost do it yourself with an interpreter as ironlady says.
Being drunk kicks ass. Sorry if all that drivel makes no sense. Hic.
Actually Lord Lucan, you got right to the crux of a number of matters -you make a lot of sense Drunk! I am convinced that the CLA here is not on the side of the employee. I think that the local CLA even told this school about a previous disagreement I had with another school.
If civil judgments are almost worthless here, exactly what do all the lawyers in Taiwan actually do for a crust? No slight to the Lawyers, I’m just curious.
I think I’m starting to understand why so many things get sorted out with a baseball bat in Taiwan. I guess if premier Su wants Taiwan fix the law and order problem, Taiwan should first make some real laws.
The real problem at hand for me, is that the local CLA essentially gave my employer two options, “either re-employ him until the end of the month”, or pay him two weeks notice.
The school today offered my job back until the end of the month, and I don’t really want to take it, and I don’t see how it is reasonable to fire someone’s arse (1 week after they have already given a respectful 4 weeks notice), then ask them back (obviously now under stressful circumstances) for two weeks, so you can avoid paying two weeks wages in lieu of notice. These guys are the ultimate “show chee gwei” -little life heart? - (cheapskates). But I guess, what’s reasonable got to do with it?
If you want to drop NT$6000 for someone to help you who knows his way around, my money is on Richard Hartzell. He handled a false accusation against me about running a business and not paying tax in 2002 and did an excellent job – in that it “went away” and everyone forgot about it, evidently. He has won many administrative actions in situations where no one thought anyone could possibly prevail.
Personally I don’t see any value in paying a lawyer and suing the school. Even if you win you are only going to be awarded what you are owed, and you can get this money yourself with a little persistence.
It seems to me that there are two main areas that you need to deal with here:
a) your civil agreement with the school on wages, penalties etc.
b) the statutory requirements of employer and employee such as labor insurance, minimum number of hours, notice periods
You are not likely to get very far with a) above unless you have documentary evidence of all of this, so I would concentrate on b) if I were you. Put the pressure on them for this, hopefully encourage them to resolve the issues in a) to your satisfaction, and then make a decision as to whether you want to make a formal complaint about the matter in b). The only way to ensure that this school does not do the same thing in the future is to issue a formal complaint and follow through on this.
Do you have documentary evidence to show that a pay raise was due, that is wasn’t paid, and that you requested this be paid? If so then include all of this in your paperwork. If not then it all becomes a case of your word against theirs and I think that this is why the CLA have chosen to stay away from this one.
I assume that this money was taken after you had given your notice to breach. If so then it is a breach penalty not a deposit. The requirement for payment of deposits and upfront bonds is illegal, but there is nothing illegal in the employer including a breach clause in the contract. If you sign the contract then you are agreeing to pay that money if you breach.
Of course the fact that you want to leave and the school wants you to leave seems to me to make it rather petty of the school to be taking this breach money. In fact had they not done this then you may have left quietly. So I can’t see how their decision to penalize you NTD10,000 is going to pay dividends for them. They would have been far better off not to have burnt this bridge in my opinion.
Again I think that you need to clarify whether this money was a deposit taken before breach or a penalty levied after breach. As others have said you cannot have a civil contract that overrides statutory regulations as this would be unenforceable. The inclusion of a breach clause and penalty however is to my knowledge totally legitimate and legally enforceable and I believe that this is what the CLA is referring to – not a deposit.
They wouldn’t help or they can’t help. As I mentioned above unless you have documentary evidence to show that you had requested this money when it was due and that you were unhappy that it hadn’t been paid, then it could certainly be argued that you had come to an agreement otherwise on this matter. Sure you could go to court and argue that it is in the contract, was never paid, and could get a win on this, but I think it unlikely. Even if you did get a win, how much are you talking and is it really worth it.
I think that you should work out the amount that you are out of pocket for on this and include it in your claim, but I would probably use it as a bargaining tool more than insist upon it.
The CLA are obligated to take action but as with many government departments here they will generally do as little as they have to. If you really want to see the school penalized then you are going to have to keep the pressure up. One way to do this is to actually visit the CLA with all of your documents and show them how determined you are. The easier you make it for them the more they will do so take along relevant snippets of the relevant legislation and the corresponding fines for breach.
Do you mean a person who is here on a German passport? Or are you referring to someone of German heritage? If it is the former then you may have some further ammunition to use against the school.
Do you mean that you were given the option of working another two weeks or leaving now and forfeiting your pay? If so then you need to go back to the CLA and explain how this is unacceptable. From what you say, you have already been fired, and I presume already left their employ. If so then no one can compel you to return to work there and the school became liable to pay you this pay in lieu of notice when they asked you to leave without giving you this notice. You need to stand firm on this one.
My advice:
Forget the breach penalty is that is indeed what it was;
Make a note of the pay raise not given but don’t make this your fight;
Insist upon your two weeks in lieu of pay as refuse to return to the school for two weeks to earn this pay on the grounds that it is unreasonable for you to be expected to return to an employer under such circumstances;
Pursue your employer through the CLA for breaching statuatory regulations in:
a) failing to give you the minimum required number of hours;
b) failing to pay their portion of your health insurance;
c) failing to give you notice
Brian,I must thank you wholeheartedly, for the effort in your detailed post.
Very sadly we shortly have a memorial for a delightful Canadian girl who lost her life last week, riding her scooter home drunk, so I will address the most important points.
The $10,000 is clearly a deposit, it was taken from me during the first 5 pays @ $2,000NT ea -it is also agreed in writing.
The wage increase after 6 months is clearly noted on my contract, that all parties have signed.
I would be more than happy to send my cash in the direction of Richard Hartzell re this matter, particualrly as he has given such long service to the foreign community.
As brian points out a penalty for breach of contract is normal and enforceable. It looks like you have paid some sort of “deposit”.
Have you contacted the Jian Bao Ju (Board of National Health Insurance)? They are responsible for enforcing the law relating to payments of Jian Bao (NHI). They may be willing to provide you with a statement of what Jian Bao payments have been made in your name, and you can tally that with your pay slips.
Have you informed the tax authorities that you believe the school has not been paying tax on your behalf? I think that is a reasonable suspicion to hold at this stage given the circumstance. They should be able to give you a statement.
Do you have documentary evidence to show that a pay raise was due, that is wasn’t paid, and that you requested this be paid? If so then include all of this in your paperwork. If not then it all becomes a case of your word against theirs and I think that this is why the CLA have chosen to stay away from this one.[/quote]
Yes Documentary evidence in the form of a signed contract.
[quote=“brian”]
I assume that this money was taken after you had given your notice to breach. If so then it is a breach penalty not a deposit. The requirement for payment of deposits and upfront bonds is illegal, but there is nothing illegal in the employer including a breach clause in the contract. If you sign the contract then you are agreeing to pay that money if you breach. [/quote]
This is in the form of a clear simple signed agreement. 5 x $2,000 -comencement of employment -clearly deposit.
Yes, we are talking a person who is here on a german passport. Not too keen on persuing this line of attack though. Don’t really know the person (met once I think), just doesn’t seem like fair play somehow.
Yes, that’s exactly what I mean.
This one I don’t think they will argue, as it is clearly a deposit, not a penalty.
[quote=“brian”]
2. Make a note of the pay raise not given but don’t make this your fight;
Insist upon your two weeks in lieu of pay as refuse to return to the school for two weeks to earn this pay on the grounds that it is unreasonable for you to be expected to return to an employer under such circumstances;
Pursue your employer through the CLA for breaching statuatory regulations in:
a) failing to give you the minimum required number of hours;
b) failing to pay their portion of your health insurance;
c) failing to give you notice[/quote]
Points 2-5 I think you are spot on, and will be following you advice. Brian, you are a clear thinker, and again you have my thanks.
I will lodge a formal complaint on Monday. (Is there a particular protocol or format for this?) I also realize that there is no administrative review possible, until a determination has been made. So it is premature to go down this road.
Life is not so bad. -I had a call from one of my previous Chinese co-teachers today, who asked me if I would work at her women’s college. She also said some of the students were missing me and apparently another was crying.
Shhhhhh Don’t tell anyone! -almost makes me think about teaching for the two weeks, so I can say goodbye in a dignified fashion. I guess it’s turmoil for these little guys too.
OK, just to make this point completely clear. I didn’t break my contract. My contract was for 12 months, which was due to finish on June 30th. I gave 4 weeks+ notice (actually on May 29th), that I would not renew my contract. The deposit was taken out from my first five paychecks @$2,000 ea.
The school has paid NHI, however they initially didn’t pay their component of the Labor Insurance which (let me have a quick look) became compulsory on 1/1/2003. bli.gov.tw/english/Default.asp
After much persuasion and two visits to the Labor Insurance office, they finally began to pay their component.
[quote=“Lord Lucan”]Have you informed the tax authorities that you believe the school has not been paying tax on your behalf? I think that is a reasonable suspicion to hold at this stage given the circumstance. They should be able to give you a statement.[/quote]You are correct, they didn’t pay tax, but that didn’t deduct it from my pay either, so I sort of figure it’s their internal matter.
Incidentlly, when they refused to pay their component of the labor insurance, I said fine, cancel it completely then, -They tried to but then discovered that once started it becomes impossible to cancel labor insurance, without simultaneously cancelling NHI. I told them I refused to pay their component of the Labor Insurance, and they responded, OK, we won’t give you the raise to $650. They asked me if I agree, and I replied that I don’t agree. Again, this exchange wasn’t in writing and was only a few months ago.
But, think about this, it’s not a fair or logical argument for the school or CLA to respond to a broken contract by saying you had the option to quit and you didn’t, therefore you must have accepted the effective change in the contract. It is synonymous with extortion. Of course I don’t want to go through the tragedy of a new ARC with six months to go on my contract. I could have made all manner of personal decisions based on the knowledge of this contract, including rejecting other employment prospects. Now I find out it’s not worth a squirt of goats water?
A written labor contract should be enforceable, and the CLA should be helping employees enforce them. Why am I the one that should have to give written notice that I don’t accept them breaking my contract. The contract itself is that evidence. They are the ones who should have my written agreement to allow them to break the contract. (such agreement does not exist.) Surely this is the basis of any and every contract in the world. Why is Taiwan CLA effectively on the side of the employer? I can feel a letter to the editor of the China Post coming up.
calm down, deep breath, om om om…
Thanks again for all the advice… I’m convinced we will only change the system with political and media pressure.
OK so it is most certainly a deposit that has been taken and this is therefore quite clearly illegal.
Also thanks for clearing up the fact that you have not actually broken your contract, you are just choosing not to renew. This calls into question why the school feels entitled to keep your deposit anyway!
Also, agreed on the German thing. I had thought that it would be a good thing to include in your complaint with the school, but as you point out this could have repercussions upon that individual which would be somewhat unjust.
It seems to me that you have a pretty clear case here and I am quietly confident that you will indeed get what you are entitled to if you choose to pursue this. Once again I recommend that you lay things ouit very clearly in written form, in point form. Basically what I would do is outline your problem and then cut and paste the relevant legislation and penalty after this. Make it so that the CLA clerks have no choice but to follow through. I have had some success using the system against employers and although it does work you do need to be thorough and persistant.
The only kink in your armor that I see is the apparent fact that you were not paying tax on this job. If not then you will be vulnerable in that department (as would the school) should this matter come up. I doubt that it would become an issue as the CLA probably won’t care, but it is something to be wary of.
[quote=“sirjohnnieboy”] But, think about this, it’s not a fair or logical argument for the school or CLA to respond to a broken contract by saying you had the option to quit and you didn’t, therefore you must have accepted the effective change in the contract.
A written labor contract should be enforceable, and the CLA should be helping employees enforce them. Why am I the one that should have to give written notice that I don’t accept them breaking my contract. The contract itself is that evidence. They are the ones who should have my written agreement to allow them to break the contract. (such agreement does not exist.) Surely this is the basis of any and every contract in the world. Why is Taiwan CLA effectively on the side of the employer? [/quote]
I don’t think that the CLA is on the side of the employer, they are just lazy. If it were the employer who came to them then they would be probably giving them the same ‘don’t worry about it, move on’ sort of attitude. If you want to resolve this in your favor then don’t look at it this way, just prepare and perservere.
I agree that it would be sensible to say that in the absence of a written addendum to the contract then the contract remains in force and in fact this would certainly seem to be a legitimate legal argument. Afterall, if the school cannot prove that you agreed to changes then the last provable fact is the written contract. But the CLA are no doubt finding it difficult to make a decision based upon what has been suggested to them was an oral agreement. You could certainly insist that the written contract be enforced in the absence of proof of that verbal agreement.
So just to recap. It seems to me that you are in the right on almost all points here and that you the legislation will support you. You just need to ensure that the CLA gives you the time of day to enforce things as they should. I think that a visit to their offices in Taipei would be a good idea.
Thanks again Brian, have read your post several times to absorb the message fully.
Pleased to read that you think the CLA isn’t anti-employee.
I shouldn’t become stubborn, dogmatic or emotional, out of frustration -rather stay calm, be prepared and be persistent, with a good chance of success.
I will cut and paste the relevant clauses tomorrow morning, (after I watch Australia try to knock brazil off their perch). Will post the result here for information.
, sorry Johnny – my error. Very sorry for the inconvenience! – DB[/color]